The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.

@2021ismyyear

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.

Its mumsnet! Why would you think its a small chance, here its almost certain (or he'd be gay/trans)

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.

Critical thinking and reading aren't your strong points eh?

Yes he may. I have a son too. Why is that so hard to understand? I have just had a mail from.my son's v academic school with a lot of v "naiice" boys saying that they have found boys involved in sexual harassment. I am sure their mothers are just as surprised and shocked. I am sure Wayne Couzens mom is shocked.

[quote TitchGreen]@DebbieGetsTheJobDone
Thank you, you made my point clearer. It was an argument I was trying to make but couldn't get across without apparently being inflammatory.[/quote]
No one called you inflammatory @TitchGreen. You’ve had several lengthy well-reasoned responses to your confusion about how men are supposed to approach a woman these days without being accused of something. People have even provided further reading links to help clear up your confusion.

Rather than engage in discussion, you’ve been deliberately obtuse and now you’re offering to buy another poster a beer for making appalling and deliberately inflammatory remarks about “all men being evil” and having to “sell her son on eBay”.

Clearly you won’t open your mind. I doubt you even read the links provided and I’m unsure why you originally posted your question, unless of course, it was your intention to be inflammatory... just like your beer pal.

TitchGreen

So he's either successful or he's sexually assaulting her?

Arguments that approaching women is a minefield are always strike me as being disingenuous. Hope this clip from The Mash Report Helps.

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.
There is, of course, a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.

There is a larger chance that he will turn out to be an arsehole to women.

He may well turn out entirely pleasant and, a good marker of that, will be if he doesnt cry 'Not All Men' whenever people try to discuss negative behaviors that are far, far more likely to be exhibited by men than by women.

It's a bit of a minefield for women as well. Is he a nice bloke who will take the polite brush off with grace, or is he going to kick off and escalate it, and if so, do I gotta worry about him following me later on, to give me my just desserts as an uppity woman. . .

Come on, its not hard not to be decent to people. People who act otherwise are making a choice, are they not? Basic manners means you don't whistle at people or make sexual remarks.

They are bullies mostly - picking on those alone or the inexperienced.

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.

Got it in one, genius. He'll likely be a nice guy. But... you never can tell.
I hope your son will grow up to be a man who will call his mates out when they act inappropriately towards women, speak inappropriately of women. May your son be the cop who actually suspends his flasher colleague (at the point of allegation) from the workplace and strips him of his badge and weapons before he has an opportunity to abduct and murder a woman days later. I want your son to be a responsible man, a man who acts accordingly and does the right thing, the man we wish existed in this tragic scenario.
Sarah Everard was failed by multiple men, men whose job it is to protect and serve.

Mr sounds like where you are is a good place to start. I wish more men would be open to at least listening and not taking our experience as a personal slight.

I hope you hang around a bit.

I’ve raised all my children with huge positivity but with a clear eyed assessment of the pitfalls. I’d honestly think I’d failed if I hadn’t contemplated the worst case scenario of being blind to the pitfalls of seeing the best on my kids. Every person I’ve ever met who has a pain in the ass entitled child thinks a) their child is innocent/a victim and b) they did a great job. It’s a constant cautionary tale.
Any child could grow up to be an asshole or a bully. The people that think this scenario is impossible are probably the most likely to produce one because you have to be open to that possibility to avoid it.

The idea of it being a people problem sounds all fuzzy and inclusive but if you’re saying it’s a people problem as a means of pretending that men are not ever responsible then that’s unfortunately bollocks

What I'm taking overall from not just this thread but other sources that are discussing these points is that women are realising that we're not being listened to wrt a large proportion of men behaving in ways that make us feel uncomfortable and threatened.
So we're asking the 'good' men to help, to use their voices and influence to get the message across, in support and conjunction with us.
And being met by some (both men and women) with a response of
'Men suffer violence too' and 'Not all men are like that' and 'I would never hurt a woman'
Clearly even good men and some women feel none of it is their responsibility. That's the attitude that needs to change first, it should be everyone's responsibility.

@PegasusReturns

I run. I run 5 times a week. Every time I run I think about rape. Sometimes for a few seconds, sometimes for longer.

I am increasingly alert when I hear someone come up behind me; I give a wide berth to a particular deserted corner of the park; my heart rate quickens if a car pulls alongside me; I risk assess every man that runs towards me: how old, how big, how fit; I wonder if I’m too far away from other people for them to hear me scream.

These are fleeting thoughts; often barely even conscious. But they occur every time I run. My DH has never thought about being raped on his run.

@PegasusReturns

This exactly. I, and countless other women, do this instinctively - it’s too dangerous not to.

Maverickess

Yes - totally agree.

And the thing that has happened in the last few days in my home is that the women have explained the reality of their lives to the men. They’ve done so realising that some of this stuff is so entrenched in our days that we haven’t really spelled it out before

It’s been a good conversation when the men have been strong enough to listen

@borntobequiet

YABU because you are constructing a false equivalence between the danger to men and the danger to women based on a partial interpretation of statistics. Women are on average smaller and weaker than men and the violence done to them by men is overwhelmingly sexual, with attendant consequences. Women’s behaviour is different from that of men and already includes those behaviours that help protect them from harm. You can’t get beaten up outside a bar at midnight unless you frequent bars late at night. The narrative that men are more at danger from men is explicitly crafted to minimise the dangers to women and to present them as fearful and “hysterical” in their response to perceived danger. Shockingly, this word was used by a (female) professor of criminology on the Today programme on Radio 4 yesterday.

I heard that professor. She was awful! She also centred men and said that women are more likely to be murdered by..... and then tailed off without saying their partners and exes. She also bragged said how she had fought attackers off; incredibly bad taste remark under the circumstances. I was shouting at the radio.

@WizardOfAus - No one called you inflammatory - I never said anyone did. I meant inflammatory to mean argumentative or derogatory to other peoples point, again I wasn't the clearest. My intention was to highlight the different standards each person has in how they perceive other peoples actions and how communication in these situations is not universal, in which case the offender may be wholely unaware they are offending.
I did read the link you sent. However can you truly say these questions are perfectly clear for everyone?
Take the first handy question they say to ask yourself:

• Is the way in which I'm making this advance likely to scare or alarm the person?

This is subjective in itself, it requires the standard of behaviour and communication to be the same for all people. But frankly, that just isn't the case, what is acceptable behaviour for one women, is not the acceptable to another. Just being asked to dance for some women is considered harrasment (I said 'assault' in an earlier post, but this was not the word I meant), I found it incredibly powerful when a man wanted to dance with me in a club, it made me feel good. I have been on the receiving end of both the 'Ok, never mind' men and 'What a slag' men in this situation. I never felt harassed, I felt sorry for the men who's only response is anger. I just didn't find the article helpful or in any way educational. I have another video from @FOJN that I haven't managed to get to, but rest assured I will. I am all for people providing material to look at, but if it is not helpful to me, I prefer not to bash the intention of people trying to help, I hope it helps other people, but it made no difference to how I feel on the matter.

Yes I have been obtuse, but I can also do humour and serious at the same time. A shock value comment about divorcing ones husband and selling ones son on eBay, while definitely does not fit the tone, is funny because it is obscene, no-one is actually suggesting they will actually do that. No-one in their right mind thinks otherwise. I can appreciate the comment for that reason, If I were in the pub with that poster, I would in fact buy them a pint.

And I didn't see much discussion to my point. I saw a lot of "it's not hard not to assault people" or things along the lines of it's really not hard, How difficult is it really, just don't say this/that.
Your own response to my point, "What?". Your next response: Jesus @TitchGreen. As you’re still confused, go read this article in the Guardian. Laura Bates has a handy checklist for you and the men in your life.
Not exactly a debating here either

5 rape prevention tips

For those of you defending your ‘lovely husbands’ & ‘delightful sons’ - you do realise that these predators don’t come with flashing beacons to indicate they’re sex offenders. How many of these deviants are apparently ‘upstanding members of the local community’ until their lies are exposed. Can you say with 100% certainly that the men in your life have never ‘enjoyed’ violent sexual pornography? Of course not all men are bad, but the point is that you never really know until it’s too late.

@FOJN
Thank you for your video. First I would like to highlight in my Post I said Sexual Assault, however I meant Sexual harassment. Thank you for distinguishing in your comment. I would like to point out though, you have created an argument based upon straw man there.
If all cases of sexual harrasment were so binary, there never would be any issues as the video suggests.
What they are trying to do in the skit here is take a mundane sitaution and pair it with a glaringly obvious obscene situation, without taking into account the subjective diffences and boundaries in between. Even the case of giving a woman flowers could be considered harassment, but the clip here states that's fine so long as the mans penis isn't flapping about. Please see this of a case in America of a women who felt she was being Sexually harassed, but wasn't:

www.workplacesexualharassmentlaw.com/2018/04/uncomfortable-situation-work-give-rise-sexual-harassment-claim/

What is harmless flirting to my boyfriend and myself could be the same behaviour that costs a man or a woman their job. And people actively and willingly participating in flirtatious behaviour have been observed and then disciplined because the observer felt uncomfortable? Is that ok? Or perhaps a willing participant has now decided that behaviour is no longer acceptable and is now pursuing disciplinary action after the fact. In which case actions you were actively encouraging at the time are now unacceptable?
Where is the line?
It's not so simple, and I don't mean that it's just men, it's women in these situations too.
If every situation fit into a nice little box, it would be so easy to fix, but it just doesn't, every situation is subjective, not objective, so there will always be ifs and buts.

some answers here
www.thetimes.co.uk/article/887fb792-8374-11eb-8dc5-6a6f238d9d27?shareToken=b26524032648fcd4d19c8209d7475966

@2021ismyyear

So we are saying that because I had a son there is a small chance he will turn out to be a rapist/murderer.... or best case just an arsehole to women.

Life really is like a box of chocolates.

Sounds like one of those black lives matter posts when a white person holds up a sign saying all lives matter. Yes they do, but this is about awareness for keeping woman safe at the moment.

Oh the poor poor men, how difficult this is for them, oh what a real shame for them.

Or, that’s fucking bullshit and it’s an utterly ridiculously goady post.

I must have missed the message that came from the police in London last week that told men to beware and stay inside.

@Purplesunflowers

For those of you defending your ‘lovely husbands’ & ‘delightful sons’ - you do realise that these predators don’t come with flashing beacons to indicate they’re sex offenders. How many of these deviants are apparently ‘upstanding members of the local community’ until their lies are exposed. Can you say with 100% certainly that the men in your life have never ‘enjoyed’ violent sexual pornography? Of course not all men are bad, but the point is that you never really know until it’s too late.

Well exactly, if there were an identifier towards men that hurt women, it'd make things so much easier wouldn't it? We're told to stay inside if a predatory man is about, not go anywhere alone, not be somewhere we 'shouldn't' to avoid the risk and that's fine, even fair game to say do that anyway, because you never know! You don't know if someone like that is out there! But when men are asked to adjust their lives to accommodate, to identify themselves as not being a threat by crossing the road, or not walking close behind a woman, not sitting or standing close, by challenging a man who's being a dick towards women, what's their reply? And that of their wives and mother's? I'm/he's not like that and it's offensive to think like that! Right so I'm supposed to stay home and out the way because an attacker could be anywhere and I won't know who, but if I need to be out because I have a job for instance, then don't actually behave like that or expect other people to understand why you'll behave like that because it's offensive. You've got to put yourself at risk from a man who isn't a good one, to make sure you don't offend those good ones.

Why can't the good men and they're wives/mother's accept that there's no indicator of a bad man, there's no saying that the man on your left is a monster and the man on your right is a saint? And the if I get it wrong, and think he's a good guy, my welfare, health and life could be at stake if I'm wrong, but if I get it wrong and the one I think is a bad guy is actually a good guy then feelings get hurt...... They feel aggrieved and upset.
There's no sure fire way of telling until something happens, the men who want to get close enough to attack will tell you the same things that a man who wouldn't dream of hurting you does, some of them even carry ID stating they're supposed to be one of the people you can trust the most in society - as shown by this recent case.
So basically the risk of a 'good' man's feelings being hurt is more important than a woman's body being hurt.

And this is part of the problem, women are schooled by society into thinking men's feelings are more important than women's safety. Don't run the risk of upsetting a man, just stay at home out the way if you don't want to get catcalled, or wanked at or pressed against, a hand on your boob or raped, or murdered.
But stay home alone, lest the man you choose is a bad one, because you never know, but also don't tar all men with the same brush though, because that's offensive, you'll find out soon enough if he's good or bad won't you? Then you can be blamed for it as well, because it was your choice.