The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

Hell, he can even get a cheap unlicensed cab

If he's a fucking idiot

@Cocomarine

A man who is afraid to walk home in the dark, can get a cab. Hell, he can even get a cheap unlicensed cab.

A woman who chooses the cab over the walk in the dark, must not choose an unlicensed cab. And they will quite possibly make a fake phone call during the cab ride so that the driver thinks a housemate knows she’s on her way, and when she’ll arrive. And also to avoid conversation which may lean towards “free ride for a blow job.” Most cab drivers are good men. But enough aren’t.

You show me a man who has ever had to think about whether his SAFE alternative to a dark walk alone is actually safe.

You are absolutely right that it will take an enormous cultural shift and that it's extremely hard for it to begin and to get momentum.

But that just shows how entrenched it is - and why we have a problem with men as a whole.

It is a massive cultural shift for men to behave like decent human beings, apparently. That's the problem.

But women can't do anything to change it until Men do it themselves,

Which is difficult if they won't even own up to the issue and say 'well I'm not like that and I am offended that I am being lumped in with a minority'

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz
Thank you, but I don’t think of it as being unusual (aside from my dad), I think so many women experience this kind of stuff and worse, and it starts young. I definitely wasn’t the only 12 year old girl getting harassed at my school. Some girls, when we were 13/14 were sleeping with older men, they’d even learnt to lie to these men and say they were virgins, because the men liked that more.

(Doubly difficult, I might say, when women are doing the job of not naming the problem and being offended on their behalf too)

And also to avoid conversation which may lean towards “free ride for a blow job.” Most cab drivers are good men. But enough aren’t.

Urgh gross. I've taken so many taxis on my own and never had anything like this. I can't believe some women have to put up with this!

That's basically half the argument on here. Just because a man doesn't perpetrate violence, he enables it because he doesn't actively chastise his mates who are making crappy jokes.

Sorry. Meant to quote Luciestar in my last post

I see your point. I also think this would require a huge culture shift to achieve. Men engage in what they perceive to be "harmless banter" of this nature, but most of them wouldn't dream of physically or sexually harming a woman. They see themselves as just being "one of the lads" by laughing at such comments, etc. It would be a huge shift in the culture of what it means to "fit in" as a man, I suppose, to address these things. It would no doubt have a positive impact on male culture and behaviour if it were possible, but I'm wondering if it erodes part of male identity and culture, to say "you mustn't join in with this banter as one of the lads, you must challenge it". It's a tough one. I do see the logic though. I just don't know how it's achievable. Earlier education for young boys perhaps?

Well that's kind of the issue isn't it? That 'good' men may see 'being one of the lads' and their masculinity as more important than helping to correct behaviour that's at best disrespectful to women, and at worse harmful. They aren't seeing it as harmful and disrespectful because it's not towards them, they're not on the recieving end. They also don't want to listen and look to see how these things are disrespectful and harmful either, maybe because they've participated or at least turned a blind eye to something similar to be 'one of the lads'? Or because being one of the lads and preserving their masculinity is more important?
How would any of these men engaging in banter feel if that banter was directed at a woman they loved? Would it still be ok to engage and do it then? Would they still see a group of men talking about the rack on their mum, or daughter as being one of the lads?
Maybe that's a message we should start with, if you wouldn't like someone saying those things about a woman you love, then it's not acceptable to say it about any woman. Ever.
When women are telling men that their behaviour is disrespectful, or frightening or harmful to them, and men are dismissing it because they see it as harmless and a laugh and can comfort themselves by saying they'd never attack a woman, they'd step in if a woman was being attacked in front of them, they're telling us that as it's acceptable to them, and should be acceptable to women too, they're adding to the problem by telling us what to feel.
Yes, start it younger, in girls and boys.

The problem starts with women's bodies and attention being viewed as public property. Something men are "entitled to". So it starts with "Smile, love!", catcalls and groping and escalates from there.

They aren't seeing it as harmful and disrespectful because it's not towards them, they're not on the recieving end. They also don't want to listen and look to see how these things are disrespectful and harmful either, maybe because they've participated or at least turned a blind eye to something similar to be 'one of the lads'? Or because being one of the lads and preserving their masculinity is more important?

I think many of them also don't see it as harmful because they're secure in the knowledge that they personally wouldn't dream of directly harming a woman. Some of them even engage in it as part of the culture and "banter", whilst secretly thinking "what a knob" about their mate. I'm thinking specifically here about my BIL - he's in the military and military humour and banter is on a whole different level. He's late 30s now and has been in the military since he was 18. It's such an ingrained part of his identity to be amongst the men laughing at stupid jokes etc. But away from that, when he comes home to my sister, he'll even share some of these stories and say "he's a total dick" about that particular guy, for example. He's a loving and supportive husband and he wouldn't dream of disrespecting a woman himself. So there's something of an ingrained culture and sense of what it means to "fit in" as a man (I appreciate military culture adds a layer of masculine banter that makes is more pronounced), whilst at the same time individual men being able to recognise ( but not necessarily voice to each other) that their mate is a total knob.

I do see your point, though. I just think male relationships are entirely different to female ones, and whereas women are far less likely to sit and make (or condone) disrespectful comments about men as part of maintaining their friendships; men for some reason do (even the good ones). I don't fully understand this gender difference but I agree with you that men challenging other men would be more powerful than any other type of intervention. I just don't know how or where you start with this cultural shift, whilst allowing men to continue to feel like "one of the guys" who "fits in". Not sure if that waffle makes much sense!

@Maverickess

I see your point. I also think this would require a huge culture shift to achieve. Men engage in what they perceive to be "harmless banter" of this nature, but most of them wouldn't dream of physically or sexually harming a woman. They see themselves as just being "one of the lads" by laughing at such comments, etc. It would be a huge shift in the culture of what it means to "fit in" as a man, I suppose, to address these things. It would no doubt have a positive impact on male culture and behaviour if it were possible, but I'm wondering if it erodes part of male identity and culture, to say "you mustn't join in with this banter as one of the lads, you must challenge it". It's a tough one. I do see the logic though. I just don't know how it's achievable. Earlier education for young boys perhaps?

Well that's kind of the issue isn't it? That 'good' men may see 'being one of the lads' and their masculinity as more important than helping to correct behaviour that's at best disrespectful to women, and at worse harmful. They aren't seeing it as harmful and disrespectful because it's not towards them, they're not on the recieving end. They also don't want to listen and look to see how these things are disrespectful and harmful either, maybe because they've participated or at least turned a blind eye to something similar to be 'one of the lads'? Or because being one of the lads and preserving their masculinity is more important?
How would any of these men engaging in banter feel if that banter was directed at a woman they loved? Would it still be ok to engage and do it then? Would they still see a group of men talking about the rack on their mum, or daughter as being one of the lads?
Maybe that's a message we should start with, if you wouldn't like someone saying those things about a woman you love, then it's not acceptable to say it about any woman. Ever.
When women are telling men that their behaviour is disrespectful, or frightening or harmful to them, and men are dismissing it because they see it as harmless and a laugh and can comfort themselves by saying they'd never attack a woman, they'd step in if a woman was being attacked in front of them, they're telling us that as it's acceptable to them, and should be acceptable to women too, they're adding to the problem by telling us what to feel.
Yes, start it younger, in girls and boys.

Yup. A group of male friends of mine went through a really childish phase of doing 'yeah. And your Mum' 'gags'

It's not funny. Even as some sort of meta-joke (as they explained it to me when I asked why that was funny). It just normalises is.

'...your Mum' is just an example of 'this is funny because it will offend you because this is a woman you actually care about that I'm making horrible sexual jokes about'

Hilarious, isn't it?

How about this to address the original problem that sparked this thread: pervasive public cameras (think covering every direction from every lamp post) linked to facial recognition technology, making it impossible for anyone to go anywhere in public at any time of day or night without being recognised and tracked. (It would be an offense to obscure your face, in fact it would be an offense to be in a public space if your face was not in the database, and the computer behind the cameras would call the police immediately to detain anyone it couldn't identify.)

In addition to fixed cameras everyone could use an app on their phone to log the identities of everyone around them, if they felt they had some reason to. Info logged straight to internet, so couldn't be deleted by a perpetrator getting hold of the phone.

The facial recognition technology already exists, we just need the political will to implement it.

I know "civil liberties" etc, and I agree there are down-sides, but I think those need to be weighed against the benefits. We could try it for five years then at the end vote whether to keep it.

Or would people rather wait until we've found a way to make all men nice?

You see it all the time on MN - women pretzelling themselves to say that certain male behaviours are okay, even when they are latently uncomfortable with the behaviour.

Also on Pervy Geoff - presumably he was funny because he couldn’t control himself whereas they could. I bet most of them were repellent, but Geoff set the standard.

Women need to be a lot pickier who they associate with

Davina McCall’s now jumping on the #notallmen bandwagon. At least you have company in your depressing views, OP.

Another shining example of whataboutery.

BuT wHAt aBouT tHe po0r MenS?

How would any of these men engaging in banter feel if that banter was directed at a woman they loved? Would it still be ok to engage and do it then?

Just to add to my point - my BIL absolutely would not tolerate any type of comment being made about my sister. He'd call that out instantly. So yeah there is a difference, you're right.

I think, if a man is secure and confident in himself and his masculinity, he won't be afraid to go against the grain, and refuse to endorse or listen to toxic misogynistic, 'bants'.

One of the things I'm proudest of DH for, is when we were working for the same company, his line manager and flunkies started making sexually explicit remarks about my young friend and colleague. DH said, very firmly, 'I'm not comfortable listening to this, you shouldn't be talking about any woman like that, let alone a work colleague', (or words to that effect, it was a while ago, and left. (I got told this by another colleague of his that was there, who thought he was a right muppet for sticking his neck out like that).

That lost him friends and promotions, and he didn't care.

@LucieStar

And also to avoid conversation which may lean towards “free ride for a blow job.” Most cab drivers are good men. But enough aren’t.

Urgh gross. I've taken so many taxis on my own and never had anything like this. I can't believe some women have to put up with this!

It’s never happened to me either. But friends - not friends of a friend, directly people I know - this has happened to. From looks they felt were leering, to winking, to the “banter” of being told they can keep their money and give their phone number instead, or “you can pay me another way” to outright being asked for sex in return for a free ride - all of this has happened to friends of mine. Not that often. But a fuck of a lot more often that it has happened to my male friends. Which would be... zero times.

Can someone explain to me who is supposed to be teaching boys the rules of dating/courting?
Because usually it's on the young lads to ask out the lasses. It's not needed or wanted all the time, but you don't find many lasses walking up to a lad at the bar asking them if they want a drink, or saying they like the way they look, wanna come for a dance?
It's still the lad to make the 1st move (in most situations).
Ok, so some girls will happily take the attention because that's why they went out on the first place, but others want the lad to try a bit harder, or don't want the attention at all.
So if one girl wants the lad to try a bit harder and show a bit of persistence, because lets be honest some like to be chased, but another girl feels attacked by that same method, how is the lad supposed to know.
So he's either successful or he's sexually assaulting her?
How is he supposed to know the difference when women can say the same thing but mean the exact opposite?
I'm really not trying to be inflamatory, but the rules have changed and no-one has bothered to call out women on their actions. Women have a damn site more power than people give us credit for.

And it's fine to use it, but don't pretend like we don't.

@Cocomarine that's gross, I hope your friends reported them to the taxi company! I'd be doing that instantly if it happened to me.

Add to my last idea, an attack alarm button/app on you phone. Press the button and the surveillance system sends your location and ongoing images from several fixed cameras with eyes on you to the police. Even as you move around, you continue to be tracked until the police get there.

@TitchGreen

Can someone explain to me who is supposed to be teaching boys the rules of dating/courting? Because usually it's on the young lads to ask out the lasses. It's not needed or wanted all the time, but you don't find many lasses walking up to a lad at the bar asking them if they want a drink, or saying they like the way they look, wanna come for a dance? It's still the lad to make the 1st move (in most situations). Ok, so some girls will happily take the attention because that's why they went out on the first place, but others want the lad to try a bit harder, or don't want the attention at all. So if one girl wants the lad to try a bit harder and show a bit of persistence, because lets be honest some like to be chased, but another girl feels attacked by that same method, how is the lad supposed to know. So he's either successful or he's sexually assaulting her? How is he supposed to know the difference when women can say the same thing but mean the exact opposite? I'm really not trying to be inflamatory, but the rules have changed and no-one has bothered to call out women on their actions. Women have a damn site more power than people give us credit for. And it's fine to use it, but don't pretend like we don't.

What?

I understand where you are coming from OP, but (and I say this as a man) I do think there is a difference between the harassment and threat faced by women and that faced by men.

I've certainly felt threatened at times, returning places at night for example. I expect most men have. But it's generally been low-level and fairly rare.

Whereas it sounds to me like the experience is very very far from rare for women.

There's an article today in The Guardian by Marine Hyde where she describes being threatened by a man on her school run just the previous day. Now that kind of thing - being harrassed in broad daylight, totally out of the blue and for apparently no reason at all - is (I'd imagine) extremely rare for a man to experience but again, all too common for a woman.

A boy who doesn’t know the difference between sexual assault and asking someone out has been raised very badly. These aren’t difficult rules!

@TitchGreen

Can someone explain to me who is supposed to be teaching boys the rules of dating/courting? Because usually it's on the young lads to ask out the lasses. It's not needed or wanted all the time, but you don't find many lasses walking up to a lad at the bar asking them if they want a drink, or saying they like the way they look, wanna come for a dance? It's still the lad to make the 1st move (in most situations). Ok, so some girls will happily take the attention because that's why they went out on the first place, but others want the lad to try a bit harder, or don't want the attention at all. So if one girl wants the lad to try a bit harder and show a bit of persistence, because lets be honest some like to be chased, but another girl feels attacked by that same method, how is the lad supposed to know. So he's either successful or he's sexually assaulting her? How is he supposed to know the difference when women can say the same thing but mean the exact opposite? I'm really not trying to be inflamatory, but the rules have changed and no-one has bothered to call out women on their actions. Women have a damn site more power than people give us credit for. And it's fine to use it, but don't pretend like we don't.

I've never felt uncomfortable by a man approaching me in a bar. What I can't tolerate is when they won't take no for an answer.

Someone coming up and starting a conversation is fine.

If I say 'no, thank you', I would expect them to walk away without calling me a frigid bitch.

That's really all. Not a lot to ask, is it.

And also...what year are we in?!