The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

Men are the problem.

All men? No. Too many men? Yeah. Even the ones who don't rape and murder can very rarely raise their hand past the age of twenty and say they've never once disrespected a woman's boundaries or treated one in a way they'd never consent to be treated themselves, simply because they felt they had the right/strength/upper hand etc. I don't reckon any man I know would be concerned to find two women or a lone woman walking behind him on his way home at night. But every woman would instantly be on alert with the situation reversed. Because men are dangerous. Not all men. But as a collective, definitely. You can't explain that away.

So why for the love of all that is holy, can you try blame all men for an act of violence on a woman?!

Eugh, for the love of God, show us where anyone on this thread has said it’s ALL MEN.

YABFU

Yes, men are also a victim of MALE violence, it's still bloody men doing it.

Occasionally women are violent, and occasionally towards men, but this is quite rare. Have a look at the male prison population compared with the female.

No, it's NOT ALL MEN, but it's ENOUGH men being a problem that 97% of women have been sexually harassed.

There can never be any conversation about the women experience without seeing the fucking NAMALT, notallmen, what about the men.

Everything, just everything has to be centred around them.

For once, just once can they just STFU and listen and not feel the need to chime in.

And OP, I hope you and your DH are raising your sons not to be entitled and think it's ok to treat girls/women like crap.

oh FFS. I CAN'T EVEN...FFS. Misandry my arse.

• There can never be any conversation about the women experience without seeing the fucking NAMALT, notallmen, what about the men.

Everything, just everything has to be centred around them.

For once, just once can they just STFU and listen and not feel the need to chime in.

And OP, I hope you and your DH are raising your sons not to be entitled and think it's ok to treat girls/women like crap*

It’s infuriating isn’t it? It’s basically just a way of telling us to shut up, because men’s feelings matter more than our experiences.

And NEVER have I ever seen a thread where a man bitches about women, and other men jump in to say “not all women”.

I might start saying Not All Men every time someone is talking about how great men are, just for my own entertainment!

“ 2021ismyyear

Isn’t it because of lower levels of self control? There’s clearly a difference in men and women. Maybe we should just drug men with female hormones...”

Ffs someone please tell me this isn’t some TRA brainwashing bullshit please. Men on female hormones are no less likely to commit the heinous crimes they do while looking like men.

The person I know who had his drink spiked was a boy. He had a couple of medical conditions; his "friends" (girls and boys) thought it would be funny to see what would happen. What happened was that he almost died.

So - he didn't have his drink spiked, as so many girls & women have, so that some inadequate creep could have sex with him. So not the same.

My DDs and their friends have "drinkwatch" when they're out (well, not for a while, obviously) and if they're not sure - they don't drink it. some of their wider circle haven't been so lucky and at least one has been raped as a result.

If men are in fear of each other then they can come up with their own campaign, why it has to come at the expense of women and their cause fuck only. Knows. It is a bit "white lives matter too" shite that was glibly trotted out during BLM.

The whole intersectional stuff that was around women's day-we must apparently include every other fight to our campaigns - racist issues, disability issues, lgbtq issues etc but you won't find somebody raising awareness about those issues being asked "but are you also fighting for women's rights".

We are allowed to talk about our issues and fight for our rights without fighting for all the other rights. It is fine to share a stage, but you can occasionally spotlight something without the whataboutary.

I would have thought we needn't have to worry about the hurt feelings of men on a site called Mumsnet.

Sarah Everard's remains have just been discovered. Just now, I couldn't care less about the feelings of the OPs sons, or for that matter my own son.

This by @shrodingersbiscuit should be read by everyone. It is spot on.

“It's a pyramid effect. It's not a spectrum, with jokes at one end and rape and murder at the other, it's a human pyramid where minor acts support the major acts. It provides, at best, a foundation of blithe indifference, and at worst amusement at the denigration of women.

The foundation of the pyramid is innumerable silent men: those who stand idly by as sexism and misogyny play out, because they aren't like that. Their silence might be due to ignorance, intimidation or indifference, but its impact is always the same—silence is complicity, and it creates a stable base for other men to stand on without fear of retribution.

Next level is apologists - there are several species, male and female, many of whom are predatory themselves, but they all protect the interests of abusive men via systematic minimisation of their crimes. They're the type who say our collective consciousness around sexual predation is a ‘witch hunt’. Some are overt - bullying is ‘banter’, bragging about sexual assault is ‘locker room talk’, raping an unconscious woman behind a dumpster is ‘20 minutes of action’. Some are a bit more benign, like the ones who say, ‘sorry about my mate, he’s had too much to drink’. Unless they’re taking the time to have an uncomfortable chat with their friend about their behaviour, they're pointless.

Then we have the powerful. They’re the ones who quash victims’ allegations saying shit like ‘think carefully about pursuing this’. Who ask victims what they were wearing, and pillory them in the media sending the message that other victims won't be believed. They protect their abusive friends and colleagues from retribution for their actions, because their actions don't impact them.

And finally, at the peak of the pyramid, we have the predators. Flashers, gropers, murderers, abusers, rapists. They stand at the top, confident in their actions because of the complicit foundation those below provide.

What's being said is if we remove the base of a pyramid, it falls down. If men (who are the ones respected by those at the top of the pyramid) call out the everyday microaggressions against women the scum at the top can't/won't act as often, and hopefully, eventually, not at all. If your son/husband/boyfriend/cousin/whatever isn't actively calling out sexism and misogyny in his every day life then he is part of the silent base of the pyramid. And that, is the problem.“

@Rowofducks

Off topic but am I the only one to never do these things I've never thought twice about going out at night. Maybe I’m stupid but hey I don’t live my life in fear.

I don't know enough about you to judge whether you're stupid but, in the face of others telling you, on this very thread about ACTUAL THINGS THAT HAVE HAPPENED TO MAKE US WARY, to imply we're "living in fear is certainly a stupid thing to say. But hey.

@TheVanguardSix

Maybe I’m stupid but hey I don’t live my life in fear.

Good for you. And that's how you should be living. My experiences have made me the opposite of you, which sucks. But it is what it is. May you never meet fear. It's a terrible companion.

Yes. And boy it likes to hang around for a loong time. When I was assaulted as a kid by a friend of my parents there was a music video playing on the tv in the background. I still feel sick and ashamed when I hear it now.

@LucieStar

I've never done any of those things in that post and I used to walk home alone in the early hours after nights out

I've never done any of them either. But I have felt uncomfortable (as opposed to unsafe) many a time, eg being wolf whistled at by groups of men when just walking past minding my own business, or even going for a run and having men drive past and shout obscenities out of the car windows etc. So I haven't felt at risk as such, but I've felt ogled and uncomfortable. No need for it.

I've never been wolf whistled at or anything like that ever, and the only time I've felt slightly uncomfortable was when I got chatted up by a woman in a nightclub

I did get shouted at from a passing car/truck last summer for crossing a road without waiting for the green man - the guy called me a fat bitch...

not sure that counts though

@Brefugee

saying to a Muslim in a plane “I’m sure you are not dangerous but some Muslims are, do you mind if I check your suitcase again. In fact can you get a different flight... one without non Muslims because you are scaring us. Please also let me know what you are doing to educate other Muslims on not becoming terrorists?”

Except that people absolutely DO demand that all Muslims answer for the minority who have committed terrorist acts, and people absolutely DO demand that they are seated elsewhere or the Muslim (looking) person is removed from the plane.
I used to travel for work with a Turkish colleague who had a beard because it suited him (and he was a bit of a hipster) and EVERY bloody time we went through airport security one of us was stopped and selected for extra searches etc. Which of us was that, di you think ?Was it the middle-aged white woman, or the tall, dark skinned bearded man?

I used to be in the Army. I could tell you things about ordinary bog-standard husband-and-father men, who were perfectly alright team members generally, that would make your toes curl. Back then we had absolutely no luck getting any of the behaviour addressed beyond "well, you'd better make sure you're always with another woman". Not sure (m)any of the men had to put up with bullshit like that.

Absolutely. I'm an army brat and learned very young that pretty much anything is tolerated and fear of whistle blowing allows squaddies to get away with horrific behaviour. Take it to a sunshine holiday posting like Cyprus and you can x by 100

@2021ismyyear

How do explain the women that do hideous things? They aren’t men... so what is it about them that makes them evil?

Perhaps you could start a thread about just that?

Males are the problem and males are also, ergo, the solution.

Instead of getting aerated and offended because they are the good ones, they can start tackling it.

They can stop making porn normal. They can talk to their male friends about how exploitative and wrong it is.

They can stop making rape jokes or just laughing along with them. They can say 'that's not funny.'

They can stop socialising boys into tribes. Look at most man on man violence and it will come down to something tribal - they weren't the same race, they supported a different football team, they looked 'posh', they were gay... in simple terms 'I attacked him because he wasn't like me.'

They can stop tolerating the male banter.

Women can't do these things because they are not listened to and often aren't there when male 'banter' happens, because most men have at least the decency not to do it in front of us.

If it became socially unacceptable to be misogynistic, it would stop - and that would have to mean socially unacceptable to other MEN because most men don't care what women feel about it.

It's not enough to do nothing and be a good man. Men have to get together and start actually, loudly, condemning things.

@2021ismyyear

Nobody has come up with a solution that will work. Sadly, just tweeting woke opinions isn’t going to solve it

Except we're not doing that. A poster up thread has done excellent suggestions of what men could do more of .... and what they should stop doing. I suggest you actually read those responses.

The scale of the empathy gap required to utilise the murder of a woman as a springboard into a conversation about victimised males is fucking staggering

I have a group of male friends and, not long ago, they were reminiscing about a housemate one of the had: Pervy Geoff.

Pervy Geoff ran up an enormous bill calling sex chat lines. He left his porn mags all over the house (this was the 90s, before he would just have had a virus ridden laptop with a hideous search history). They all thought Pervy Geoff was hilarious.

Did one of them once pull him aside and say 'this is disgusting and your attitude is repugnant'?

Nope. They just sniggered about him behind his back.

It's not fucking funny. Call him out! DO SOMETHING!

The @shrodingersbiscuit post is spot on!

*I've never been wolf whistled at or anything like that ever, and the only time I've felt slightly uncomfortable was when I got chatted up by a woman in a nightclub

I did get shouted at from a passing car/truck last summer for crossing a road without waiting for the green man - the guy called me a fat bitch...

not sure that counts though*

Lucky you. I was sexually abused as young child by my father, that was my first experience.
At ten I was at my uncles house and he was chatting to his friend on the phone. The friend asked to speak to me, which my uncle allowed. He told me I had a sexy voice and asked me if I knew how to put a condom on. My uncle found it hilarious.
At 12 I started getting street harassment, men in cars cat calling and beeping, making crude comments.
At 13 I got followed home when I was on my bike by 3 men in a car.
At 14 I was sexually assaulted at school, a boy pinned me down to a table in an empty class room and got on top of me. Luckily a teacher walked in, he gave us both detention, because clearly, it was my fault too...
At 18 (ish) a man walked up behind me in a club, never even saw his face, and put his hand down the front of my trousers. When I told a bouncer, he shrugged and walked off.
I won’t keep going, the post would be too long, but forgive me if my view of men has been tainted.

@stuckinatrap

I have a group of male friends and, not long ago, they were reminiscing about a housemate one of the had: Pervy Geoff.

Pervy Geoff ran up an enormous bill calling sex chat lines. He left his porn mags all over the house (this was the 90s, before he would just have had a virus ridden laptop with a hideous search history). They all thought Pervy Geoff was hilarious.

Did one of them once pull him aside and say 'this is disgusting and your attitude is repugnant'?

Nope. They just sniggered about him behind his back.

It's not fucking funny. Call him out! DO SOMETHING!

I see your point. I also think this would require a huge culture shift to achieve. Men engage in what they perceive to be "harmless banter" of this nature, but most of them wouldn't dream of physically or sexually harming a woman. They see themselves as just being "one of the lads" by laughing at such comments, etc. It would be a huge shift in the culture of what it means to "fit in" as a man, I suppose, to address these things. It would no doubt have a positive impact on male culture and behaviour if it were possible, but I'm wondering if it erodes part of male identity and culture, to say "you mustn't join in with this banter as one of the lads, you must challenge it". It's a tough one. I do see the logic though. I just don't know how it's achievable. Earlier education for young boys perhaps?

A man who is afraid to walk home in the dark, can get a cab. Hell, he can even get a cheap unlicensed cab.

A woman who chooses the cab over the walk in the dark, must not choose an unlicensed cab. And they will quite possibly make a fake phone call during the cab ride so that the driver thinks a housemate knows she’s on her way, and when she’ll arrive. And also to avoid conversation which may lean towards “free ride for a blow job.” Most cab drivers are good men. But enough aren’t.

You show me a man who has ever had to think about whether his SAFE alternative to a dark walk alone is actually safe.

@Naunet

*I've never been wolf whistled at or anything like that ever, and the only time I've felt slightly uncomfortable was when I got chatted up by a woman in a nightclub

I did get shouted at from a passing car/truck last summer for crossing a road without waiting for the green man - the guy called me a fat bitch...

not sure that counts though*

Lucky you. I was sexually abused as young child by my father, that was my first experience.
At ten I was at my uncles house and he was chatting to his friend on the phone. The friend asked to speak to me, which my uncle allowed. He told me I had a sexy voice and asked me if I knew how to put a condom on. My uncle found it hilarious.
At 12 I started getting street harassment, men in cars cat calling and beeping, making crude comments.
At 13 I got followed home when I was on my bike by 3 men in a car.
At 14 I was sexually assaulted at school, a boy pinned me down to a table in an empty class room and got on top of me. Luckily a teacher walked in, he gave us both detention, because clearly, it was my fault too...
At 18 (ish) a man walked up behind me in a club, never even saw his face, and put his hand down the front of my trousers. When I told a bouncer, he shrugged and walked off.
I won’t keep going, the post would be too long, but forgive me if my view of men has been tainted.

Naunet that's so awful. I'm sorry that happened to you.