The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

I think the men that will go on to do violent crimes are not going to listen

The ones that say “show us yer tits” might listen

And the vast majority of good men will thing “this doesn’t apply to me”

Nobody has come up with a solution that will work. Sadly, just tweeting woke opinions isn’t going to solve it

And do you think trying to stop women from talking about it or telling them they’re offending men, is in anyway helpful? Is your solution that we should shut up and accept that this is just the way the world is?

And what a way to ensure it definitely never does change, to do nothing.

I've never done any of those things in that post and I used to walk home alone in the early hours after nights out

I've never done any of them either. But I have felt uncomfortable (as opposed to unsafe) many a time, eg being wolf whistled at by groups of men when just walking past minding my own business, or even going for a run and having men drive past and shout obscenities out of the car windows etc. So I haven't felt at risk as such, but I've felt ogled and uncomfortable. No need for it.

Ok... for all the clever people on this thread what is the answer?
A protest March, slagging off all men on Twitter, cancelling davina? Banning porn? Education?

Cancelling Davina. The Oracle of Bad Telly Ratings.
Your post reminds me of the Sesame Street tune 'Three of these things belong together, one of these things does not belong'. I mean, the other issues I will happily debate with you, but cancelling Davina is as moot a point as cancelling Wotsits because they offend Cheetos.

@Rowofducks

Off topic but am I the only one to never do these things I've never thought twice about going out at night. Maybe I’m stupid but hey I don’t live my life in fear.

God no! Not stupid. Everytime I hear/read this I have 2 distinct reactions

1. Jealousy. Things that have happened in my life have robbed me of that

1. A sincere wish you live your whole life like that.

That's how it should be!

Nobody has come up with a solution that will work. Sadly, just tweeting woke opinions isn’t going to solve it

What if you stay close to a woman walking alone at night, check to see if she's ok, stay with her if she's vulnerable? Start small, do good.

@FooFighter99

I've never done any of those things in that post and I used to walk home alone in the early hours after nights out - sometimes absolutely pissed as a fart

I'm not sure if my height and size (I'm 6ft and plus-size) make me "unattractive" to the type of bloke who'd harass a woman?

I'm not what you'd call a shrinking violet either and have always stood up for myself - I'm confident and a bit gobby

I'm not saying that those who have experienced harassment aren't also confident women - but I do wonder if that's why I've never experienced it

I was much the same pre- and post rape.

But I didn't act any differently the night I was raped. My actions had no bearing on it.

I think that, in some way, helped me maintain some of that confidence. That and having read the book and seen the film Garp... I am now pre-disastered!!

So tired of this. For once just once when women bring up an issue that affects them can we not turn it into "But what about the men"
Every bloody time its fucking draining.

@2021ismyyear

I’m not offended.

Explain to me why one of these is ok but another isn’t:

• saying to a Muslim in a plane “I’m sure you are not dangerous but some Muslims are, do you mind if I check your suitcase again. In fact can you get a different flight... one without non Muslims because you are scaring us. Please also let me know what you are doing to educate other Muslims on not becoming terrorists?”

• to a man “I’m sure you are nice but what it’s always men that rape and murder. Please cross the road if you walk near women. Please don’t go out after 6pm. Please educate your friends not to be rapists”

"- saying to a Muslim in a plane “I’m sure you are not dangerous but some Muslims are, do you mind if I check your suitcase again. In fact can you get a different flight... one without non Muslims because you are scaring us."

But in the case of men, we aren't asking to check their suitcase. Or take a different flight. Or do anything equivalent. We are not asking for individual men to be answerable in any way to us. So this isn't remotely relevant as an analogy.

" Please also let me know what you are doing to educate other Muslims on not becoming terrorists?”
We are also not suggesting men educate men into not being terrorists. We are asking them to recognise misogyny when they see it and call it what it is rather than laughing it off.

better analogy might be
"I’m sure you are not dangerous but some Muslims are. Can you pay attention to other Muslim men in your community acting suspiciously or displaying a change of behaviour? If you are concerned they might be planning a terrorist attack can you report them rather than assuming everything is ok?"

What would be wrong with saying that? It's no different.

We are just asking men not to collude with and cover up the abuse of women.

Murders by a stranger are rare. Violence from men towards women isn’t. 510,000 women experienced sexual assault in the year March 2016- March 2017. 90% of those who were raped knew the perpetrator prior to the attack. The men doing this are working in your office, making your latte, guests at your friend’s barbecue.

[quote Cassilis]@JanetHandjob should be called JaneyToneDeaf[/quote]
Why? Because I don't agree that this is all about women?

@VerityWibbleWobble drink-spiking is vile. However, I would never assume it's only girls who have their drinks spiked. The person I know who had his drink spiked was a boy. He had a couple of medical conditions; his "friends" (girls and boys) thought it would be funny to see what would happen. What happened was that he almost died.

I have always told my DC - the boys just as much as the girls - never to accept a drink from anyone in a pub/club, and never to leave their own drink unattended. That's basic safety for both sexes.

@FooFighter99 I'm the very opposite of physically intimidating (teeny-tiny in MN speak). But I've still not lived a life of fear.

One thing I do wonder slightly is whether school makes a difference. I spent my entire school life at a girls' school, so my only real experience of men was my sweet, kind, gentle dad. My DC have all been at single sex schools - apart from one very brief period, when one of them was at a co-ed school when she was about 14. She did say that the boys spent a lot of time making sexual comments about the girls. I was glad once she was back at a girls' school.

@2021ismyyear

Ok... for all the clever people on this thread what is the answer?

Well for starters, letting women actually speak about their experience and not shutting them down and not diverting the conversation and focussing on the feelings of men again.

@BrittyBrassic

People that do these crimes are obviously not right in the head. I’m not sure you can prevent them through education or asking others to call it out or asking mums to chat with their sons. Some people are sick, twisted individuals

And what about the other issues that are extremely common place in society? Men shouting at women from cars 'show us ya tits love' and other lovely comments, groping women in nightclubs, slapping an arse here or there, watching violent porn, getting aggressive in tone when advances are rejected etc etc...

However much you want to ignore it, those things are extremely common. They may not be as extreme as rape or murder but imo they are all behaviours which lead to the acceptance of the way men treat women.

Are all of the men who do things like this 'not right in the head' or just sick individuals? Or is it a wider problem with our society excusing this behaviour as normal and acceptable?

And this, things like groping catcalling stalking, all of these have become so normal now and ingrained into society and we women are just to accept it. Do the majority of men have to suffer this everyday when they go out?

Not talking about it and just shutting up will just make things more normal.

@2021ismyyear

I think the men that will go on to do violent crimes are not going to listen

The ones that say “show us yer tits” might listen

And the vast majority of good men will thing “this doesn’t apply to me”

This with bells on.

Worldwide 96% of murders are committed by men. In the UK 90% of murders are committed by men.

Stopping men from behaving violently benefits men too.

*I'm the very opposite of physically intimidating (teeny-tiny in MN speak). But I've still not lived a life of fear.

One thing I do wonder slightly is whether school makes a difference. I spent my entire school life at a girls' school, so my only real experience of men was my sweet, kind, gentle dad.*

I can relate to some of this. I'm quite petite too. I've never feared a man, as such. I didn't go to an all girls school but I was raised solely by my Dad, who was a very positive and loving male role model. I'm also lucky to have never had an abusive experience with male partners as an adult. I'm aware that these things will have hugely shaped my perception of risk and vulnerability relative to men, hence why I haven't felt "at risk". But I still do hate the whole being ogled and wolf whistled, it does make me very uncomfortable, and I don't think men have to put up with this as much as women do.

Bold fail

Im probably ridiculous because i've never felt quite so disheartened at the way womens lives are being made smaller in recent years but I wonder if this situation may actually change things a bit.
While the 'not all men' thing has exposed everything from the rampant misogny of people who just want women to shut up through to perfectly nice men who are feeling a bit rocked and defensive because of the huge numbers of women disclosing assaults, fear and anger it HAS forced conversations.
Every conversation ive had today has been centred on this including my adult son who phoned to chat about it and my daughter whose class had conversations around it today.

Im hoping that it will make people talk about who these men are - surely thats where the conversation goes next- and the 'not all men' reflex is more clearly seen as men not wanting to think that whilst not them it often is guys just like them. Its the guy they drink with who gets a bit pushy chatting up girls when he's drunk but 'he's harmless really'. The guy who works in the next office who he chats with in the lift, who drives the same car.

We constantly want the guys that do this stuff to look like a rapist so when a clean cut young man is the accused then no one believes the woman. if we can start seeing that they look like everyone else we might start believing women and more rapists being convicted would be a pretty good start.

i dont think most men try to cover up abuse. women have to live assuming that it could be any man but men are not seemingly strong enough to do that yet.

@2021ismyyear

I think the men that will go on to do violent crimes are not going to listen

The ones that say “show us yer tits” might listen

And the vast majority of good men will thing “this doesn’t apply to me”

So you are saying we should just do nothing then? That's what you're saying? Just accept it and shut up about it?

People that do these crimes are obviously not right in the head. I’m not sure you can prevent them through education or asking others to call it out or asking mums to chat with their sons. Some people are sick, twisted individuals.

I won’t name names but I know of someone that has been in newspaper recently for sexual attack on a woman. A father, great job, lovely man. Lots of friends and a gentle personality. Loving family. Great education.

Anyway he went down wrong path, ended up liking cocaine a bit too much. On a binge he did something awful to a woman.

How the hell can you stop that.

So he really wasn't a lovely man with a gentle personality was he? Or are you just saying it was all the fault of the cocaine?

You don't get it do you? You've just described EXACTLY why many women are wary of most men. Even the lovely seeming ones can't necessarily be trusted.

And yes I think banning porn (never gonna happen but we could at least stop children from accessing it) education from school and parents and actually taking sexual assault and harassment seriously in the CJS might help. And sadly, whilst it angers me to say it, women need to stand up against the men in their lives and say, 'no that comment you made was actually awful, no I don't want to be with you if you watch porn and yes if you love the women in your life you need to stand up for women whenever it's needed'.

Thankfully all the women I know seem to have chosen men where none of that needs to be said. Which is as it should be.

Maybe people should start a conversation about how the media is portraying women, and not about how men are out to get us women.
It's shameful.
I've seen people post about how male on male violence, the media gets down the issue of knife crime, or of gang violence. These are all valid issues. But when a women has been attacked my a man, it becomes a case of whether the victim was alone, was it dark, or secluded, why did they put themsleves at risk.
Of course the risk isn't the same for men and women, Men are generally bigger and stronger than women. So what do you do? Lock men indoors after 6pm? Ridiculous. This country isn't as safe as it used to be, why? Because we don't have police patroling, speaking and listening to a community. People forget that in this country we police by consent, the police are meant to be average people, the only difference to them and us is that their occupation is upholding the law. People need to check out Sir Robert Peels 9 principles of policing. The basis for how the police force should work and operate.
Could you imagine a person look out of a window when they hear screams or alarms blaring and call someone to help? No, better to call the police and complain, than call and suggest someone might be in danger. How about more social responsibility? Help each other out for a change.
Sorry, but all this nonsense about this being a gendered issue has got to stop.
You can't blame all germans for WWII. You can't blame all muslims for 9/11. You can't (no matter how hard people try) blame all white people for slavery. So why for the love of all that is holy, can you try blame all men for an act of violence on a woman?!
Buck your ideas up.

Every single woman I know has been sexually assaulted in some way. I worked in an office once where four out of five of the women had been raped, one pretty brutally.

None of my close male friends has ever been sexually assaulted/groped/ran into oncoming traffic because the driver of the unlicensed cab he'd been put into by his work was chasing him down after explicitly telling him what he was going to do to him.
Yeah they could all be suffering in silence but I don't think so

Three women a week die as a result of male violence.

What would you like women to do OP? Never speak of male violence because it hurts your feelings?

What is really odd...When I was young, men calling stuff out became just is normal one learned too ignore it..It was just like traffic noise, or aircraft noise, there, but tune-outable.

When riding a horse or bike ''Lucky saddle'' and worse..

But actual touching is horrible.

What is lovely is that when one gets older,. cat calls become less and less, but ironically I have had women say ''I find it sad that I no longer get wolf whistled, I am invisible now''.

The ''Active Self Protection'' channel on You Tube is geared for America, where guns are allowed, but even without guns, he advises everyone to keep head up, to look confident, to not ''Look like a victim''

{Male or female}..and to be aware of where a lurker may be.

And very importantly, to trust your gut instinct.

It is rarely wrong.