The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

On any given day here on MN, a woman complains about her husband's/partner's porn use. She feels devalued as a woman and disgusted by what he views. She ends up being made out to be the unreasonable one, the controlling one, every time. Hard proof that there is no sisterhood on MN. These are guys, husbands, and fathers, upstanding citizens who would club a guy to death for flashing their daughters, are quick to turn around and prove that the rules they lay down for their daughters don't apply to them when they're wanking in front of the family PC or locked in the family toilet getting off on some woman being gagged and violently gang-raped. But hey, it's only porn. Harmless. And it's her job. She probably loves it. I digress. Or do I really?

I completely agree. I don't know how many men in the UK watch porn (I suspect quite a high %) but all of them unless they're viewing gay male porn are getting off on watching women being degraded or performing sex acts that cause them pain or put them at risk of injury or death.

And I'm sure that most of those men consider themselves the good guys, the ones who wouldn't dream of being misogynistic let alone abusive towards women.

It's all bullshit really. I hate having to worry about my teen dd walking down the road to catch her school bus. Not just the worry of abduction but knowing she's at risk of random men shouting shit at her. Men who probably think they're good guys, who love their mothers, who are appalled at this recent murder, who see absolutely no link between their own behaviour and the fear that most many women feel on a daily basis.

Totally agree that it's not the same for women and men - we are constantly policing our lives and our environments, assessing risk. I know that from my own life. I also have been in hundreds and hundreds of situations where I was very vulnerable, (drunk, alone with men I didn't know well / at all, walking late at night) and nothing happened. It isn't correct to say we are constantly in danger - but that perception of risk is there. And yes, I've been assaulted / followed / attacked too. I also have a DS (16) and I am very worried about him being punched / beaten up by other men, and this has already happened on a few occasions. He is not safe from other men. He's not a fighter. Male babies are not born wanting to hurt anyone. My DS's would never attack another person of either sex. I am 100% sure of that. What is it that our culture / society does to boys to make (some of them) violent / misogynists? That's what I think about.

• I’m not offended.

Explain to me why one of these is ok but another isn’t:

• saying to a Muslim in a plane “I’m sure you are not dangerous but some Muslims are, do you mind if I check your suitcase again. In fact can you get a different flight... one without non Muslims because you are scaring us. Please also let me know what you are doing to educate other Muslims on not becoming terrorists?”

• to a man “I’m sure you are nice but what it’s always men that rape and murder. Please cross the road if you walk near women. Please don’t go out after 6pm. Please educate your friends not to be rapists”*

Sure, right after you answer my question and tell me the “acceptable“ way for women to discuss the violence they face from men.

@ktp100

It's not demonising, it's the truth.

Yes, men fight and attack other men. Still utterly dreadful and obviously everyone is wary about certain areas where crime is high, especially muggings etc, BUT I do not know a man who has had to knock a stranger's door due to being followed, I have never known a man carry an alarm, I have never known a man to carry keys in their hands as a weapon, I have never known a man get flashed at, I have never known a man be aggressively thrown against a wall by a stranger on the street and kissed and hands forced down their pants, I have never known a stranger to sneak a hand up their clothes when they're shopping as a child and I have never known a man who has had a stranger try to drag them into their car.

Not one.

But all of those things happened to me.

And most other women I know have similar experiences.

Something needs to change.

This exactly.

PegasusReturns

When I'm out walking with my dog and see a lone female jogger, I linger. It's almost automatic. My pace quickens to get closer to her, hers slows to meet mine. And the dog is a bonus.
I do this because I am afraid. I do this because 5 years ago, I walked along the towpath with the dog. Two guys 'in hoodies' (that ol' stereotypical chestnut) walked behind me. My hackles were up a tiny bit because I was alone until I saw in the distance a jogger sitting on a bench. I was glad she didn't move away and remained sitting as I passed her. I felt safer. I continued on my way, walked on by her, and heading towards a bridge that took me to my kids' school (doing the pick-up).
By the time I returned, the area where the female jogger had been sitting was cordoned off by police. They swarmed the place. She'd been stabbed by those two blokes walking behind me about 15 minutes after I'd walked past her, leaving her alone with them. I still feel terrible guilt over this. If only I'd lingered with the dog until those men walked on by and decided not to risk targeting her. If only I'd acted on my senses. She lived. But she lives with trauma. Of that, I am sure.
So now, I linger with my dog until the jogger and I find ourselves in a place with multiple walkers around. Then I feel ok leaving her. There is, as I said, a knowing, I believe, a tacit understanding among women. Nothing is said. We just stay close until we come upon a more populated area.
We know. We're women.

my sons all run, often after dark and on towpaths. When I mention safety to them they cite their size and strength and the unlikely event of anything happening

^This

My son always says (kindly), "don't fret, Mum, remember, I AM the danger"

I’m a man and it is absolutely the case that I’ve felt fear walking on my own at times.

I was attacked in my 20’s randomly by another guy.

I had to step in once when I saw a friend being threatened by another man carrying a weapon and thought we’d both be attacked (luckily police were nearby and stepped in).

I’ve often crossed roads or taken different routes to avoid groups or individuals late at night, and also I’ve carried keys defensively. I don’t think this is that unusual but I doubt many men feel comfortable admitting to their fear.

I also think the situations and the things you fear as a man are different. I’m very fortunate that rape isn’t on my mind as something that might happen. But sometimes you can tell that a guy is looking for a fight, and he’ll want it to be with another man as that will prove something about his masculinity (in his mind). Those are the men who will be looking for eye contact with someone to give them the excuse to kick off but may oddly be more restrained when confronted by a woman (as that doesn’t seem to fire off the testosterone of some men in quite the same way).

I think that is why I got into clubbing and pills when I was young, when people left those clubs they were happy and loved up, you didn’t get that awful sense of imminent violence that seemed to hang around the clubs fuelled by alcohol.

If you are a man who isn’t violent this can all seem bewildering and quite horrible. I know we all get lumped in together as men but these guys who go through life with so much hatred and causing so much fear and pain feel like a different species sometimes.

I’d like to think I would confront them (and have in the past) but if I’m honest most of the time I just try to avoid situations where I would come across them. It’s easier now that I’m older and don’t go out as often, but I’m very aware that it can take seconds for an altercation to turn into a stabbing, and I don’t want my kids to lose their dad because I said the wrong thing to the wrong person.

I don’t say this to minimise women’s experience in any way, just to explain how it feels to me. Toxic masculinity is a huge problem.

I have daughters and sons. I guess I just can’t ever see anything changing. Identifying the thousands of violent dangerous men out of billions and billions in the world is not possible. Many of whom even their own friends and family didn’t realise they were rapists, capable of crime etc.

I can see myself in 20 years waiting for my daughters outside a nightclub. I just don’t think it will change.

Perhaps education in schools just for boys with greater emphasis on respecting/protecting women.

@2021ismyyear

I’m not offended.

Explain to me why one of these is ok but another isn’t:

• saying to a Muslim in a plane “I’m sure you are not dangerous but some Muslims are, do you mind if I check your suitcase again. In fact can you get a different flight... one without non Muslims because you are scaring us. Please also let me know what you are doing to educate other Muslims on not becoming terrorists?”

• to a man “I’m sure you are nice but what it’s always men that rape and murder. Please cross the road if you walk near women. Please don’t go out after 6pm. Please educate your friends not to be rapists”

Well, very obviously, you need to specify your country and preferred time period and come up with an appropriate data analysis. Possibly look at airlines in your example to consider hijacking etc. and then compare them across the airline industry.

White supremacists have killed about nine times as many Americans as Muslim extremists have during terrorist attacks carried out in the U.S. in recent years, according to a report released Thursday by the National Consortium for the Study of Terrorism and Responses to Terrorism's Global Terrorism Database.

The annual report shared data the GTD collected throughout 2019 on terrorist attacks carried out in the U.S. and abroad and compared it with information compiled in previous years. The data included the number of attacks reported in each country, those attacks' targets, the number of victims and perpetrators killed and the organizations behind each incident.

www.newsweek.com/white-supremacists-killed-more-americans-muslim-extremists-recent-years-terrorism-report-shows-1517096

It isn't correct to say we are constantly in danger

Constantly maybe not in a literal sense but how are you ever supposed to know when you're in danger and when you're not considering you can be randomly abducted from the street and killed whilst walking home on a well lit route, wearing a beanie and trainers, just one example.

You may not literally be in constant danger, but it does make the danger feel constant when you never know when you're in it and when you're not.

This is a bit "all lives matter" isn't it.

and heading towards a bridge that took me to my kids' school

headed! Not heading. My writing is a mess on this thread. I think it's the emotions of it all. I'm writing all of this stuff and thinking, "Fuck. I've seen too much. And to think others have seen way more."
I realise how shafted we've been by men's perpetually negligent (for the nice guys) and bad (for the fucked up ones) behaviour.
They just get a free pass in society and it is shit.

@2021ismyyear

I have daughters and sons. I guess I just can’t ever see anything changing. Identifying the thousands of violent dangerous men out of billions and billions in the world is not possible. Many of whom even their own friends and family didn’t realise they were rapists, capable of crime etc.

I can see myself in 20 years waiting for my daughters outside a nightclub. I just don’t think it will change.

Perhaps education in schools just for boys with greater emphasis on respecting/protecting women.

And how sad is that?

You don't see it changing so we just shouldn't bother.

Why is it impossible to stick to the subject of violence perpetrated by men towards woman and girls

This and only this needs to be addressed without the subjected once again being derailed

@TheVanguardSix

PegasusReturns

When I'm out walking with my dog and see a lone female jogger, I linger. It's almost automatic. My pace quickens to get closer to her, hers slows to meet mine. And the dog is a bonus.
I do this because I am afraid. I do this because 5 years ago, I walked along the towpath with the dog. Two guys 'in hoodies' (that ol' stereotypical chestnut) walked behind me. My hackles were up a tiny bit because I was alone until I saw in the distance a jogger sitting on a bench. I was glad she didn't move away and remained sitting as I passed her. I felt safer. I continued on my way, walked on by her, and heading towards a bridge that took me to my kids' school (doing the pick-up).
By the time I returned, the area where the female jogger had been sitting was cordoned off by police. They swarmed the place. She'd been stabbed by those two blokes walking behind me about 15 minutes after I'd walked past her, leaving her alone with them. I still feel terrible guilt over this. If only I'd lingered with the dog until those men walked on by and decided not to risk targeting her. If only I'd acted on my senses. She lived. But she lives with trauma. Of that, I am sure.
So now, I linger with my dog until the jogger and I find ourselves in a place with multiple walkers around. Then I feel ok leaving her. There is, as I said, a knowing, I believe, a tacit understanding among women. Nothing is said. We just stay close until we come upon a more populated area.
We know. We're women.

Wow. How awful

Off topic but am I the only one to never do these things I've never thought twice about going out at night. Maybe I’m stupid but hey I don’t live my life in fear.

my sons all run, often after dark and on towpaths. When I mention safety to them they cite their size and strength and the unlikely event of anything happening

Tell them they're idiots, being big and strong is no defence against being stabbed, shot or clubbed unexpectedly.

my sons all run, often after dark and on towpaths. When I mention safety to them they cite their size and strength and the unlikely event of anything happening

It's a false sense of security. That said, they are less likely of being attacked than women.
My son is built like a rugby player, strong as an ox, all of that malarkey.
Didn't do jack to protect him from being attacked at knifepoint, pinned down to the ground, punched, and kicked... for a fucking phone, as usual. Not having a go at you or your sons, just telling it like it is.
Violent aggressors will get what they want at all costs.

Maybe I’m stupid but hey I don’t live my life in fear.

Good for you. And that's how you should be living. My experiences have made me the opposite of you, which sucks. But it is what it is. May you never meet fear. It's a terrible companion.

People that do these crimes are obviously not right in the head. I’m not sure you can prevent them through education or asking others to call it out or asking mums to chat with their sons. Some people are sick, twisted individuals.

I won’t name names but I know of someone that has been in newspaper recently for sexual attack on a woman. A father, great job, lovely man. Lots of friends and a gentle personality. Loving family. Great education.

Anyway he went down wrong path, ended up liking cocaine a bit too much. On a binge he did something awful to a woman.

How the hell can you stop that.

People that do these crimes are obviously not right in the head. I’m not sure you can prevent them through education or asking others to call it out or asking mums to chat with their sons. Some people are sick, twisted individuals

Ahhh, they’re all “not right in the head”! Can you link us all to the study that shows men suffer from mental illness at far, far higher rates than women then?

I never said men... I said people.

This thread makes me sad. Every time something happens to women or women voice out their opinion, they are never heard and the discussion always shift to 'what about men, what about how they feel?' No one ever gave a f* about how women feel, it's always about MEN. It's tiring and I feel sad for my daughter having to grow up in this society.

Plus, it might not be all men, but all my woman friends have been attacked or harassed at some point in their lives including me, and every single time there is an attack on woman, the blame is always on the victim! Us women are always told what to do, but men gets to live their lives freely. It's sickening.

I never said men... I said people

But men commit the vast, vast majority of violent crime, so by your logic, then must have far higher rates of mental illness, no?

@Rowofducks

Off topic but am I the only one to never do these things I've never thought twice about going out at night. Maybe I’m stupid but hey I don’t live my life in fear.

That's nice for you. Many women don't have the luxury of just deciding not to live their life in fear.