The men I know feel like this too ...

[Givitarest]

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

Women's violence to other women and men shouldn't be denied

If men committed violence at the same rate as women, we’d all be a lot safer.

Do you want to point out where someone was denying female violence by the way? Maybe you posted on the wrong thread, because it’s not happened here.

I haven’t thought a lot about this until recently, but I was surprised to realise how much I modify my behaviour due to fear of attack by a man. When I run early in the morning, I will often take a different route if I see a man walking in the same direction. I prefer to run on the beach where I can see someone coming from a long distance away. If I see a man I don’t recognise (on my route I see the same runners and dog walkers every day) I will be on high alert. I haven’t extended my run in one direction because despite it being a nice route, it’s set back from the road and concealed behind trees. If I’m out at night on my own I will avoid eye contact with men and take different routes to avoid them.

It’s very sad I have only recently realised all this due to being conditioned that I should be afraid because I’m a woman.

Some people are psychos. Some a violent. Some are evil, sick twisted individuals. Women can be too. Old, young , black, white.

It’s far more dangerous to deny facts.

[quote oldegg123]@nancywhitehead

I think what's difficult is when people (like my partner) get messages from angry women telling them what they should be doing.

My partner received quite a patronising text message from a friend who is very passionate about all of this, telling him that because he is a man, he needs to be doing XYZ to make sure that women around him feel safe.

I thought that was unnecessary and that the passion was misdirected, and he felt a little hurt by it, as if she thought that he might be a danger to someone or be intimidating (he's really the least intimidating person ever).

To be honest I think he needs to get over it and would be quite interested in seeing the actual message. You say she's quite passionate about "all this" as if it's a bad thing?

When my non-white friends shared BLM resources and advice on how white people could educate themselves I didn't get huffy about being accused of being (unknowingly) racist and unconsciously biased. I sucked it up, accepted that I'd been born into a position of privilege and would be a good idea to learn more about what I could do to be an ally.[/quote]
He is over it.

It's not a bad thing at all to be passionate about it, but like I said, I think it was misdirected, for a couple of reasons, not least that she was targetting someone who is already extremely aware and trying really hard.

Totally agree about BLM and self education, but I think the way to do it is to send those things out, in general, to a group of people, rather than targetting a single friend and saying "YOU my friend are privileged and this is what YOU need to do".

It's fine but I just don't think it's very tactful and it is going to get people on the defensive.

I think the best way to get this message across to men in a way that they will be the most receptive and the least defensive, is to target groups of men, rather than singling out one person and sending them an onslaught of what they should be doing.

It's not demonising, it's the truth.

Yes, men fight and attack other men. Still utterly dreadful and obviously everyone is wary about certain areas where crime is high, especially muggings etc, BUT I do not know a man who has had to knock a stranger's door due to being followed, I have never known a man carry an alarm, I have never known a man to carry keys in their hands as a weapon, I have never known a man get flashed at, I have never known a man be aggressively thrown against a wall by a stranger on the street and kissed and hands forced down their pants, I have never known a stranger to sneak a hand up their clothes when they're shopping as a child and I have never known a man who has had a stranger try to drag them into their car.

Not one.

But all of those things happened to me.

And most other women I know have similar experiences.

Something needs to change.

Nancy
Perhaps there was a more effective way to get the message across. But actually more of us should be having that conversation with the good men in our life. Yep it's potentially awkward as many like your DH will react defensively but more men need their eyes opening to the reality of many women.

As a previous poster asked, if the good men won't stand up who will?

Again I ask. What has your own husband actually ever done to tackle male violence and harassment of women? Or does he just say #metoo?

How is her husband supposed to police a policeman who likely used his authority to kidnap and murder a woman? Because that’s what started this.

The one man who did this is responsible for what he did. Him alone.

Equate this demand to asking the entire Muslim community to root out terrorism in its ranks.

Yeah, it’s a terrible problem ins’t it, male violence? If men would just stop being violent things would be much better for everyone.

It’s dangerous to Make assumptions

//

Weird as when I've been assaulted it's been by a man. I'm not as frightened of assumptions.

Women are killed - by men. Men are killed - by men. Men are the problem here.

@ItMustBeBedtimeSurely

Has nailed it on the first page. So I'm just repeating her post. (I'm assuming her)

"It's not a bad thing at all to be passionate about it, but like I said, I think it was misdirected, for a couple of reasons, not least that she was targetting someone who is already extremely aware and trying really hard."

If it's not him it's not about him. As part of his 'trying really hard' he could control his hurt feelings and not take the message as a personal insult. He could say 'you're right I will help in any way I can'. Nit 'you are not asking in the right way'.

have read up to page 8 so apologies if this has moved on but I think its important to be able to speak honestly about our experiences as women.

OP, since as far back as I can remember I have been given different advice to my brother who is a year younger than me.

when we were children, I was only allowed to the shops on my own if my brother came with me. he on the other hand could go alone.

when I was a teenager, if I was going out drinking my mum would stay awake worrying until I was home. not so much with my brother. also, my brother used to come to where I was and walk me home. I was not allowed to get a taxi back on my own and had to ring my mum/step dad/brother to come and get me. my brother did not get this advice.

When I was in my early 20s I was sexually assaulted by my ex boyfriend whom I had not been with for over a year. the real kicker here is that I was only with him at his house because I thought it was safer to wait for a taxi there then to walk home on my own.

I was and still am constantly told to not leave my drink unattended, to lock my car doors when I get in, to not walk alone at night, to not walk in areas that are not well lit. To not dress in a way that attracts attention if I dont want it.

the list really does go on, I have a daughter too and it saddens me to think that I am likely going to need to carry this narrative on.

it is disgusting that it has taken what happened recently for this to get as much attention that it needs.

we know it's not all men and the reason men might get offended by this or instantly "it's not all men, this is outrageous" is because the kind of behaviour that is being spoken about is far from what they personally would ever do. But there is still far too many that dont think anything of harassing, making derogatory sexual comments, pressuring women to have sex, not taking no for an answer and there are even less that will actively call other men out if they see this behaviour. it's almost like "boys will be boys". So I have to be honest, I dont feel sorry for men who are offended by the current narrative. its important and if they are offended by it then good - it means they find the behaviour repugnant too. Hopefully, society as a whole will stop turning a blind out to this bullshit that has been going on for far too long.

To be fair nancy I think that's what we're trying to do. While also talking about it to the men we know.

I'm 99% sure the lady in question did not mean to imply DH was a bad 'un. Sometimes we need a shock to sit up and listen.

• How is her husband supposed to police a policeman who likely used his authority to kidnap and murder a woman? Because that’s what started this.

The one man who did this is responsible for what he did. Him alone.

Equate this demand to asking the entire Muslim community to root out terrorism in its ranks.*

Ahhh, now I get it! Every time a woman is raped, murdered, assaulted, kidnapped, stalked etc, we must all act like it’s an isolated incident and not part of a bigger picture, so as not to offend the Good Guys ™️

"Equate this demand to asking the entire Muslim community to root out terrorism in its ranks."

That's exactly what people have done after terrorist attacks. The Muslim community have stepped up by trying to stop radicalisation of their young men and condemning violence.

eye*

W*eird
*
The Muslim community are pretty proactive in looking for and helping to prevent radicalisation.

If you feel men can't be asked to stand up and help stop this what do you suggest happens instead?

I am nearly 50.
I was repeatedly raped at 9 by a male neighbour. My brothers were not. I was.
I stood at the open caskets of my two friends who were murdered by their rapist. They were 11. Female. Murdered by a man.
I was forced into an alley at knifepoint when I was 19 by a man.
I was stalked by a male at 21. Ironically, it began on the same night a sniper was shooting randomly from a Manhattan rooftop on my very street. The sniper was... you guessed it, a male.
My days of looking over my shoulder will stop when I turn to ash because I am female and that is how it is for us"

@TheVanguardSix. ❤️💐 Thank you for sharing. Sending all the love in the world. Thank you for speaking out and helping others on MN

I remember when I started university, we had self defence classes for women. The men didn't have 'treat women with respect classes'. I think they have consent classes now?

@Naunet

I’m desperate to learn the “correct” way for women to discuss the violence men commit against us, so that the Not All Men crew can have a night off from policing women’s language. Can anyone educate me?

This. 💯

@frogswimming

"It's not a bad thing at all to be passionate about it, but like I said, I think it was misdirected, for a couple of reasons, not least that she was targetting someone who is already extremely aware and trying really hard."

If it's not him it's not about him. As part of his 'trying really hard' he could control his hurt feelings and not take the message as a personal insult. He could say 'you're right I will help in any way I can'. Nit 'you are not asking in the right way'.

It is a personal insult, though. She was asking him to do things that he already does, and being his friend she actually knows that. She was just using him as a mechanism to express her general frustration. She wasn't seeing him as an individual at all, but just as "male" and therefore like all other males in her mind. So yes, that is actually pretty hurtful to him as an individual.

She was reducing him to his gender and nothing more. Like I have mentioned before, the same way that muslims or black men or any other group are blamed for the actions of a very small minority.

So, it was hurtful, and yes it's OK for him to feel hurt by that! Again - yes he's male - he's also a human with feelings.

This is an individual case. Obviously, men as a whole should not feel upset or offended if they hear what women as a whole want and need from them in order to feel safe. But in this particular case it was absolutely OK for him to feel hurt and the lack of ability to see nuance is what holds these things back from making any progress, because if you can't recognise individuals who are trying their hardest, then they won't respect or listen to what you are saying to them, either (and why should they?)

@Palavah

OP, it has widespread support.

Your argument is that we shouldn't complain about men attacking women, because men attack other men too. I dont think the problem is naming the victims, do you?

I usually roll eyes at those that quote "this" but erm... this!

@oldegg123

Advise her to photograph the vehicle and/or person. Each and every time. Then report it to the police. Each and every time. And don't stop. Ever. Encourage her to have a zero tolerance approach from day one so by the time she joins the workforce, she'll have no hesitation in reporting sexual harassment at work and by the time she has a boyfriend, she will have no hesitation in reporting him.

Sadly I don't think this is a good idea, there's been lots of cases where violence against women/girls has escalated after they've taken proof of it happening :(

Molly Tibbets was tragically murdered by a catcaller after she threatened to ring the police. Some media outlets are suggesting that Couzens may have exposed himself to Sarah (given his history with indecent exposure), she took a photo, and then was the primary motivation for her murder.

The only way it tackling this on a systemic level, not by putting individual women at risk. Of course speak out, but only when it is totally safe to do so.

That’s a good point and clearly only if it’s possible to take images safely. But even if not possible phone the police every time. Even if just to describe the man or vehicle.

If everyone contacted the police every single time a girl in school uniform was catcalled or every time a woman or girl was sexually harassed, the police would soon start shouting for more resources to record it all.

If it’s not documented, it may as well never have happened. Every case must be documented.

It’s dangerous to Make assumptions

I suppose there are only 3 options: Trust all of them, trust some of them, or trust none of them. I know how I feel when walking alone with the dog at night. I fight the fear. I don't trust the male figure in the distance walking towards me. I assume he's alright. But I don't entirely trust him because I know what it's like to have a blade touching my skin and thick fingers wrapped around me like a tourniquet and pressing into my arm. 30 years ago and I can feel the fear now. You live it, you learn it. I have had to learn to be friends with men. I wasn't always this way. But I became that way. I had to re-learn how to have a positive perception of men.
You and I just think differently about our place in this world because of what we know and what we have lived out.

It's not a bad thing at all to be passionate about it, but like I said, I think it was misdirected, for a couple of reasons, not least that she was targetting someone who is already extremely aware and trying really hard.

Maybe your friend sent the message to every man in her address book so that she didn't look like she was calling out the ones she suspects of being the bad 'uns? You know, not rocking the boat as we women are constantly told to do.

As i keep saying: if you (or the men in your life) aren't the bad ones, if they pull up their friends/sons/fathers on their sexist behaviour etc etc we're not talking about them