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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

The men I know feel like this too ...

999 replies

Givitarest · 12/03/2021 08:07

This "Every woman you know" meme is trending on social media. But men are in danger from violent men too and, in fact, are much more likely to be a target. With reference to Jess Phillips, if a politician were to read out the names of all the men who had died at the hands of other men, as well as the women, it would be a very long list indeed. If society has "just accepted" dead women then we have just accepted dead men too.
I fear for my sons' safety, and give them very similar safety advice as I would if they were daughters. My husband has always taken similar measures to the things on this list (whilst also avoiding walking behind lone women etc) and has had more negative personal experiences than I have. So can people please stop sharing memes that demonise men? It is 'misandry' ... the antonym to mysogyny ... and the movement against violence will not win widespread support unless it is more appropriately framed.

The men I know feel like this too ...
OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 12/03/2021 11:57

[quote nancywhitehead]I was interested to learn this morning that fewer women than men fall victim to violent crime. The truth is that men have just as much to be worried about, although I think women do tend to experience more fear about what could happen to them.

www.cbs.nl/en-gb/news/2018/51/fewer-women-than-men-fall-victim-to-violence[/quote]
So we're imagining it?

DebbieGetsTheJobDone · 12/03/2021 11:58

I am not trying to be goady.

That meme... well, every boy I know has experienced what is described in it. Every friend I know had ran home, or ran to the police station because they felt trouble. Most men I know had keys ready in their hands just in case because things didn't feel right.

When I read about Sarah, I feel as worried for my own sons than my daughters.

It's not about trying to distract anything. I just don't see why you think this meme is about WOMEN, when it's most boys daily experience.

BrittyBrassic · 12/03/2021 11:59

I just don't see why you think this meme is about WOMEN, when it's most boys daily experience

Because I genuinely don't believe it is most men's daily experience at all.

nancywhitehead · 12/03/2021 12:02

@tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz

Not at all! It was just a statistic that surprised me, that's all.

I suppose the difference is that whilst men might fear violence when they go out, women fear rape and sexual assault and that will play on our minds a lot.

It was just interesting though that the actual rates of violent crime are higher against men.

mbosnz · 12/03/2021 12:04

Something I noticed, when social distancing came in as a thing, was that it came naturally to me, but often I was pointing out to DH that he needed to come over, maintain distance, not get in people's space.

My theory is that women (a bit of a gross generalisation, when I think about my head in the clouds daughter), are as a matter of personal safety and survival, trained to be hyper aware of our surroundings and other people, so it comes naturally to us. Whereas men don't tend to have trained into them, just about at genes level, that level of hyper awareness. I explained my theory to DH, and after thinking it through, he did agree. To me, if we're going to use another phrase that can really get some people's undies in a right twist, this is a good example of male privilege.

BrittyBrassic · 12/03/2021 12:04

Go and ask your brother's, father's, husbands, partners or male friends how many times they've been catcalled whilst walking down the street, been groped on the dancefloor of a nightclub, sexually harassed or called a fucking slut (or equivalent) for turning someone down. Ask them how many times they sent a picture of their female date to their friends in case they didn't come home from it, ask them how many times a woman has messaged them randomly asking for a picture of their dick and got aggressive when they said no. There are so many more examples and I'm not having for a second that the men in your life deal with all that as much as the women in your lives do. Not for a single second.

oldegg123 · 12/03/2021 12:05

Advise her to photograph the vehicle and/or person. Each and every time. Then report it to the police. Each and every time. And don't stop. Ever. Encourage her to have a zero tolerance approach from day one so by the time she joins the workforce, she'll have no hesitation in reporting sexual harassment at work and by the time she has a boyfriend, she will have no hesitation in reporting him.

Sadly I don't think this is a good idea, there's been lots of cases where violence against women/girls has escalated after they've taken proof of it happening :(

Molly Tibbets was tragically murdered by a catcaller after she threatened to ring the police. Some media outlets are suggesting that Couzens may have exposed himself to Sarah (given his history with indecent exposure), she took a photo, and then was the primary motivation for her murder.

The only way it tackling this on a systemic level, not by putting individual women at risk. Of course speak out, but only when it is totally safe to do so.

oldegg123 · 12/03/2021 12:06

And apologies to Mollie, mispelling of name- this is the correct way Flowers

FridayNightAtTheBronze · 12/03/2021 12:06

DebbieGetsTheJobDone

My husband has done none of those things in the meme. I have done them all.

Don't forget that in an altercation with the same man, a woman/girl is likely to come out of it worse than a man/boy.

Men and boys already have biological 'weapons' they can use in an attack. Size, speed, strength, lung capacity and longer strides to run away quicker and faster.

Women are more disadvantaged in any attack purely by being a woman.

And that doesn't even take in to account that women have the added risk of sexually motivated attacks far more than men do.

Cassilis · 12/03/2021 12:07

What i heard in the news:

How many men were murdered by women in 2021? 0

How many women were murdered by men in 2021? 31

TheVanguardSix · 12/03/2021 12:07

OP, the problem is, you're asking people to pick a team. That just diminishes responsibility for longstanding bad behaviour on the part of men.
The reality is that predatory perpetrators of violent crime, aggressors, are men. You could pepper statistics with a few female perps, but men are the issue here and men, nice men, good men, men like our husbands, sons, and brothers, write off so much predatory behaviour that males possess and act on as 'biological/just blokes being blokes'. Watching women get gang-raped on a pc monitor. Oh, it's just porn. Your DH has a wank to it. It ain't no thing: it's just porn. He's just a bloke. Was that the thinking behind the police officer who decided it was ok for his 'flasher' colleague to keep on working his shift, keep on carrying a weapon, keep on being a predator until he became a murderer? Boys will be boys.
I understand your point of view, OP. And I agree with much of what you said. My son is 19 and will not go out after dark. He hasn't been out under cover of darkness since he was 16 and mugged at knifepoint, held to the ground, then beaten up by 5 young men. Believe me. I understand where you're coming from. I worry just as much about my son as I do my daughter. However, with my daughter, that shadow of fear will follow her ALL of her life... not just while she's young and attractive, but when she's middle-aged, elderly even. I want my daughter to grow really tall, not because it's elegant or attractive, but because height is more intimidating. Being tall might help save her from being harassed. This isn't a fact, only a thought. She will always be far more at risk of being attacked and murdered by a male perpetrator than my sons because she is female, because the motive for attacks on women is sexual (my 19 year old did not have to worry about being raped on top of beaten, so there's that! Yes, I am being rather sarcastic here). Undeniably, there are sexual assaults on men too.... by, wait for it, other men. But if I were to make list of all the bodies that have shown up days after being dumped by their rapist killers, those names would be female, every. single. time.
I am nearly 50.
I was repeatedly raped at 9 by a male neighbour. My brothers were not. I was.
I stood at the open caskets of my two friends who were murdered by their rapist. They were 11. Female. Murdered by a man.
I was forced into an alley at knifepoint when I was 19 by a man.
I was stalked by a male at 21. Ironically, it began on the same night a sniper was shooting randomly from a Manhattan rooftop on my very street. The sniper was... you guessed it, a male.
My days of looking over my shoulder will stop when I turn to ash because I am female and that is how it is for us. Pretty unacceptable, isn't it?
Men. Their predatory behaviour is normalised, forgiven. They can't help themselves, awww bless. On any given day here on MN, a woman complains about her husband's/partner's porn use. She feels devalued as a woman and disgusted by what he views. She ends up being made out to be the unreasonable one, the controlling one, every time. Hard proof that there is no sisterhood on MN. These are guys, husbands, and fathers, upstanding citizens who would club a guy to death for flashing their daughters, are quick to turn around and prove that the rules they lay down for their daughters don't apply to them when they're wanking in front of the family PC or locked in the family toilet getting off on some woman being gagged and violently gang-raped. But hey, it's only porn. Harmless. And it's her job. She probably loves it. I digress. Or do I really?
We live in a society where violence against women is habitually fuelled and salivated over in video games, pornography, film, and TV. We know, as humans, how to modify our behaviour. Sarah Everard's alleged attacker (I will refer to him as such for the sake of not getting my post pulled) knew how to modify his behaviour until he could no longer do so. Then he tried not to get caught until he was. He had the big ol' family man smoke screen going for all and sundry to admire.

Men have to own their shit. It is time for men to own their shit. My 19-year-old son was attacked and beaten, as mentioned above. He cannot afford to be a victim because he his male. And that is a shame. But at the same time, his attack doesn't absolve him of his own responsibility as a man to make sure he is not the reason a woman walks the streets in fear. My son still has a job to do. His attack was a terrible lesson, a traumatic event in his life, and a reminder that people can be violent, abusive dicks. But he can be a vital cog in the great wheel of change. He can't just think that though, he has to act on that and change the record.
Our sons have a job to do, OP. And as women, we have to become the sisterhood we are more than capable of being.
We all need to heed the advice of Libby Squire's mother, posted on Twitter yesterday. Not verbatim, but she pretty much said, Look out for each other. Just take the time to not leave a woman alone at night. Stay with her. Help her get home safely.
It takes seconds to help a sister out. We can do this.

nancywhitehead · 12/03/2021 12:10

@BrittyBrassic

Go and ask your brother's, father's, husbands, partners or male friends how many times they've been catcalled whilst walking down the street, been groped on the dancefloor of a nightclub, sexually harassed or called a fucking slut (or equivalent) for turning someone down. Ask them how many times they sent a picture of their female date to their friends in case they didn't come home from it, ask them how many times a woman has messaged them randomly asking for a picture of their dick and got aggressive when they said no. There are so many more examples and I'm not having for a second that the men in your life deal with all that as much as the women in your lives do. Not for a single second.
It's pretty horrendous and it needs to be talked about. I really doubt that the majority of men experience any of that.

I do believe that men can be allies, though. My partner is accutely aware of all of this because he listens to the women in his life, and he knows, but also at times he feels demonised when he has done nothing wrong. At the moment he is feeling somewhat attacked just because he is male, despite being a very good person who is trying his absolute best.

There has to be a balance between finding a way to tell men about these things and help them to understand, without demonising them for being male, because, you know, most men are actually pretty great and we love them!

BrittyBrassic · 12/03/2021 12:11

And before anyone starts, I'm not saying there has never been a man who's been catcalled or groped by a woman in the history of human kind. It's the frequency that makes the difference.

EmbarrassingAdmissions · 12/03/2021 12:11

It was just interesting though that the actual rates of violent crime are higher against men.

You might need to look at the definitions of violence and what happens to statistics like this when you include groping/sexual assault or comparable as part of the violence against women reporting. If street harassment were included as part of intimidation.

And I wonder what would happen to violent crime statistics if DV and intimate partner violence were included in them? (Although this has been muddied by the age cap in previous years as you might have read in the recent news stories about the Femicide Census.)

JanetHandjob · 12/03/2021 12:11

Every woman you know has taken a longer route.
Has doubled back on herself
Has pretended to dawdle by a shop window.
Has held her keys in her hand.
Has made a fake phone call.
Has rounded a corner and run.

Every woman you know has walked home scared.

Every woman you know

@FindTheTruth Part of the problem is this kind of blanket statement. I am a woman and have never done any of those things.

I am sorry that so many people live their lives in fear. However, please don't imagine that everybody does.

I hope my DC don't live with this kind of fear. I hope that when I tell them to get a taxi home after a night out, I am telling them to do so because there are unfortunately some unpleasant people around, who are likely to become much more unpleasant when they're drunk. But I would hate them to become fearful, the boys as much as the girls.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 12/03/2021 12:11

From what I can see that's an interesting snapshot of the Netherlands.

It doesn't negate anything many of us are saying here though. I've not reported any of the incidents that have happened to me so I wouldn't be counted.

FridayNightAtTheBronze · 12/03/2021 12:12

TheVanguardSix

Thank you for writing that wonderful and insightful post. I am sorry for what you have been through and your son too.

tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 12/03/2021 12:12

@oldegg123

Advise her to photograph the vehicle and/or person. Each and every time. Then report it to the police. Each and every time. And don't stop. Ever. Encourage her to have a zero tolerance approach from day one so by the time she joins the workforce, she'll have no hesitation in reporting sexual harassment at work and by the time she has a boyfriend, she will have no hesitation in reporting him.

Sadly I don't think this is a good idea, there's been lots of cases where violence against women/girls has escalated after they've taken proof of it happening :(

Molly Tibbets was tragically murdered by a catcaller after she threatened to ring the police. Some media outlets are suggesting that Couzens may have exposed himself to Sarah (given his history with indecent exposure), she took a photo, and then was the primary motivation for her murder.

The only way it tackling this on a systemic level, not by putting individual women at risk. Of course speak out, but only when it is totally safe to do so.

It really is shit isn't it? The only solution is for men to stop. And in the meantime we'll be scolded coz NAMALT.
tellmewhentheLangshiplandscoz · 12/03/2021 12:13

Vanguard Thanks

BrittyBrassic · 12/03/2021 12:13

I do believe that men can be allies, though

Absolutely they can and should be! In fact I don't think there is solution without them to be honest.

I have a husband and a son. I do not think all men are demons. Not by a long shot.

But it doesn't change the fact that the problem is mainly men. That isn't the same as saying all men and it shouldn't be offensive to those who aren't like what's being described.

Cassilis · 12/03/2021 12:14

@JanetHandjob should be called JaneyToneDeaf

2021ismyyear · 12/03/2021 12:15

I find this anti-man narrative awful. All the hastags.

The woke brigade are a horrid bunch. It’s no different to being racist.

Mmn654123 · 12/03/2021 12:16

@2021ismyyear

I find this anti-man narrative awful. All the hastags.

The woke brigade are a horrid bunch. It’s no different to being racist.

What on earth are you burbling on about?
BrittyBrassic · 12/03/2021 12:17

@2021ismyyear

I find this anti-man narrative awful. All the hastags.

The woke brigade are a horrid bunch. It’s no different to being racist.

It's anti violent men... What's wrong about that?

Why are men who don't do these things offended?

nancywhitehead · 12/03/2021 12:17

@BrittyBrassic

I do believe that men can be allies, though

Absolutely they can and should be! In fact I don't think there is solution without them to be honest.

I have a husband and a son. I do not think all men are demons. Not by a long shot.

But it doesn't change the fact that the problem is mainly men. That isn't the same as saying all men and it shouldn't be offensive to those who aren't like what's being described.

I think what's difficult is when people (like my partner) get messages from angry women telling them what they should be doing.

My partner received quite a patronising text message from a friend who is very passionate about all of this, telling him that because he is a man, he needs to be doing XYZ to make sure that women around him feel safe.

I thought that was unnecessary and that the passion was misdirected, and he felt a little hurt by it, as if she thought that he might be a danger to someone or be intimidating (he's really the least intimidating person ever).