Too Many Men

[JackieBeaver]

I'm feeling very sad about the Sarah Everard case. Poor poor woman. There's a lot of stories coming out now from women who have experienced feeling unsafe due to the behaviour of men with the hashtag toomanymen trending on Twitter and Green Party peer baroness Jones calling for a 6pm curfew of all men.

We need a change! This can't go on, I'm so tired of feeling unsafe and unable to go about my business without fearing for my safety. I'm worried for my dd also

Enough is enough

@ghostyslovesheets

kareningalasmith.com/2021/02/08/2021/?fbclid=IwAR1TUGh9NgQ2RtStm28xOFc8_7U1amnQqweaGYkVQYQiCvy35zHD0SzLfWQ

30 IDENTIFIED women killed by men so far in 2021 - it's MARCH

So 30 women killed out of about 34million and and because of 30 men 34million should be punished?

Of course all men aren't to blame! But we all need to take responsibility including looking out for others in our neighbourhoods and teaching our daughters to be assertive plus self defence, remember most cases are people they know and both these skills are particularly useful. My dd is (well will be again from when it's allowed) teaching self defence to students, she's a student herself

What was the Yorkshire Ripper’s excuse? Or Fred West’s? Porn is an incredibly lucrative industry, it’s never going to be banned. The genie’s out of the bottle now

Don’t get me wrong, I’m not suggesting it will solve the problem, it won’t, but I think normalising and sexualising the abuse of women only adds to the problem. And I wasn’t suggesting banning all porn, I’m suggesting banning porn that is violent or humiliating.

Women have a place to educate their sons, but men have a larger responsibility to be able to call out toxic male behaviour rather than just trying to distance themselves from it and calling it 'offensive' when it's raised. This.

And stop small boys and girls from playing violent computer games? I'm sure there must be a connection, although male violence existed long before computers.

@FrustratedTeddyLamp really? I mean Really?

Women are 'punished' all the time by the restrictions on them to keep them safe.

Do you seriously think the 30 women do not matter?

What is your answer to this then?

97% of 18-24 year old women (and 80% of women of ALL AGES) have reported being sexually harassed/assaulted.

97% of how many? 80% of how many? I only ask because on their own those figures mean nothing.

I don't know what the answer is but it's definitely not a curfew. I think education of boys is certainly better than it was, my two sons are very aware. However, they are very different and where one of them would, and has, spoken up when needed, the other would definitely not do so and it would be a very stressful situation for him.

It's not easy for people, male or female, always to confront unjust behaviour by others and it's unfair to say they are apologists if they can't speak up for whatever reason.

And also is it a surprise when talking about men going around killing women and you're saying 30 have been killed ( which by the way is too many) and people talk about men people wonder why people insist NAMALT when you're talking less than 1 in a million. And NAMALT isn't a special phenomenon when a man says something shitty about women people say women aren't like that or talking about little boys or girls and people point out X little boy or girl isn't like that. By just saying men it's a general statement, so I dont see the issue of people pointing put NAMALT like people do at all other generalisations

@TrialOfStyle

*I would think it's on us mothers seeing as men can't be trusted, yes. I came into my husbands life when he was way too old for me to try and form his mind, so according to some, surely I can't trust that he will be able to raise our son right? How can I trust his future male teachers, the media which is largely run by men?

I'm just going by what people on this thread are saying. It's got to be up to me, his grandmother's, his aunts and his future female teachers.*

Education to men - all men - is what is required. Public service campaigns, regardless of how offensive it is to the NAMALT club. Education is schools. Tough convictions for hate towards women. Call it out, prosecute it.

If toxic influences of men still exist, it's a circular problem. You can try your best with your son, as can I, and I'm sure they will grow up to be decent people, but that's only half the story and it isn't going to fix the ongoing problem. Women have a place to educate their sons, but men have a larger responsibility to be able to call out toxic male behaviour rather than just trying to distance themselves from it and calling it 'offensive' when it's raised.

Yes, but we can't expect one boy/man to stand up to a bunch of other boys/men, can we? It completely depends on the people involved. I would never tell my son to put himself at risk in order to be a hero, hence the distancing and taking the correct steps when it's safe to do so. Not when he's at risk of being beaten up by a handful of others.

And stop small boys and girls from playing violent computer games? I'm sure there must be a connection, although male violence existed long before computers.

I'm not going to dig around for peer-reviewed sources, but I'm pretty sure this has been studied to death, and there is no correlation (or in fact, there is a slight negative one - people who pay video games are less likely to be violent).

It's not particularly intuitive, but it is what it is.

I happen to think video games are a desperate waste of life, but that's another matter.

@missbridgerton

DH is the kindest gentlest man I know. He was driving the work van the other day, and saw a young mum with a pushchair who was walking in an absolute downpour and the pram didn't have a raincover. His instinct was to stop and help, he could have let her stand in the back of the van with her pram but he said he stopped himself, because he was worried about being reported for trying to accost her.

It's a sad world when men can't be thoughtful to strangers who happen to be women.

Works both ways.

Your husband really is not a victim here.

Yes, but we can't expect one boy/man to stand up to a bunch of other boys/men, can we? It completely depends on the people involved. I would never tell my son to put himself at risk in order to be a hero, hence the distancing and taking the correct steps when it's safe to do so. Not when he's at risk of being beaten up by a handful of others.

I agree with this. I'm male, and I know that, if I intervened in every case where someone was spouting misogynistic shit, I would end up getting my head caved in. These kinds of arseholes will not change their viewpoint because of a telling off.

Yes, but we can't expect one boy/man to stand up to a bunch of other boys/men, can we? It completely depends on the people involved. I would never tell my son to put himself at risk in order to be a hero, hence the distancing and taking the correct steps when it's safe to do so. Not when he's at risk of being beaten up by a handful of others.

So because we are scared for men (why would they be beaten for calling out sexist behaviour up a given by the way - bit of a straw man there), women will continue to be collateral damage.

He is @LakieLady! I hope he stays that way.

We were having a chat about equality the other day. I had the news on and the stats about equal pay etc came up.

DS was taken aback when he heard how many percent lower women's pay was to men's.

He said he hoped his female mates would speak up if they weren't getting paid the same as a man doing the same job.

I said 'why wouldn't you speak up if you found out a female member of staff where you worked was earning less for the same job?' So you could see the cogs ticking around...so I said 'if your wife or partner is earning £20,000 and you're doing a similar job but are on £32,000 that's £12,000 per year that's not going on your family table just because someone's decided she's not worth the same wage as you. That's £12,000 per year that isn't going towards holidays, nicer food, a better car and bigger house. So wouldn't you want a man to speak up alongside your wife or partner and say that's unfair? The more voices shout, the bigger the noise. Plus, if your wife or partner isn't earning the correct amount there's more chance that, if there's a decision that one of you will stay at home with the kids for a few years, it'll be her. Why would it make sense to give up the bigger wage? So that means that, even if you really want to be a stay at home dad for a year or two and could manage on £32,000 as a family, she isn't earning enough to keep you all so she gives up work or works part time. Which means you can't have the choice that two men living together doing the same job as you two would have'. 'Well that's not fair' he said (yup...you're getting it son!)

He's decided it makes sense for men to speak up - it's amazing what the thought of a posh car can make to a 14 year old boy! ha ha!

And that's the point with this debate. Women shouldn't have to change their behaviour (not going out in the dark, arranging a lift home etc). Men should be aware of their friends and their own language or actions and be brave enough to call it out if it's wrong. They need to brave enough to stand up to friends and say 'this isn't funny' or 'that's very offensive'. Women can shout until they are blue in the face but if men sit back and see it as a 'women's issue', half the voices are missing. And every woman who is worried about going out, every woman who gets a quick grope when she goes to buy a round of drinks, every woman who can't go out for a run without having lewd comments about her backside or boobs, is the wife/partner/sister or friend of a man. So men have a voice in this and need to use it.

[quote TheGoodEnoughWife]@FrustratedTeddyLamp really? I mean Really?

Women are 'punished' all the time by the restrictions on them to keep them safe.

Do you seriously think the 30 women do not matter?

What is your answer to this then? [/quote]
I'm not saying they don't matter I'm just saying to make sweeping generalisations about how shit men (30million+ in this country) are because 30 did something is too broad, yes men should not be killing women and it needs to be sorted but I don't think we can start demonising a country of men when you're talking about 1 in a million, and yes I know at the end of the year it will be worse but its still gonna be a great less number than 0.1% all on mumsnet there's been a tide of reclaiming peoples lives because apparently coronavirus is nothing to worry about according to a load of posters and that kills 2-3% of people but because of drastically less than 0.1% men are awful

Yes, but we can't expect one boy/man to stand up to a bunch of other boys/men, can we? It completely depends on the people involved. I would never tell my son to put himself at risk in order to be a hero, hence the distancing and taking the correct steps when it's safe to do so. Not when he's at risk of being beaten up by a handful of others.

Why just one? Do you think you're the only one that is raising their son right?

Young boys and men need to know it's ok to not engage in harmful and sexist behaviours at the very least.

They need to know it's ok to speak out as the next step.

Why is men being violent and scary an excuse for other men to do nothing? Women should stand up to them though.

If NAMALT why are all these scenarios a single male against who knows how many others?

Don't you see how ridiculous is to keep making excuse, anything that men could do is too scary,too hard, impossible etc but expect change at the same time.

Who will drive that change? The tooth fairy?

@picklemewalnuts
There should be an annual night, like 'reclaim the night', where men voluntarily curfew and women get a night out less constrained by the presence of men.

As long as someone delivers food and there is strong drink in most men would probably agree.

The decent men who'd never scare or manhandle a woman can demonstrate their decency by supportively staying home. Anyone still out is an arsehole (work excepted).

Nope, you want a curfew its all men.
So two things
Why? Don't you want to do the shitty shifts?
worboys was definitely at work when he committed his crimes.

So 30 women killed out of about 34million and and because of 30 men 34million should be punished - sorry who has said that - punished how?

sorry for not saying 'only' 30 women - but one fucking death is one to many - women are punished everyday for simply existing I'm sure men will cope with having their behaviour called out

I'm not saying they don't matter I'm just saying to make sweeping generalisations about how shit men (30million+ in this country) are because 30 did something is too broad

You’re ignoring the rape, violence and sexual abuse women face, this isn’t only about murder.

The point I made earlier about men speaking up wasn’t in regard to putting themselves in danger. I’m talking about the “low level” acts that are the foundation of greater misogyny.

For example, if Man A was in a bar with a group of male friends and one of them said something like “Nice tits love” to a passing woman, I would fully expect Man A (and all the others for that matter) to pull him up over it and tell him not to be such an arsehole.

@TrialOfStyle

Yes, but we can't expect one boy/man to stand up to a bunch of other boys/men, can we? It completely depends on the people involved. I would never tell my son to put himself at risk in order to be a hero, hence the distancing and taking the correct steps when it's safe to do so. Not when he's at risk of being beaten up by a handful of others.

So because we are scared for men (why would they be beaten for calling out sexist behaviour up a given by the way - bit of a straw man there), women will continue to be collateral damage.

I'm sorry, I must be losing it. I've had 13 h of sleep in 3 nights, working full time (though with some time "off" this week) and have a toddler who has decided they don't like sleep anymore. Ever. At all.

Where the fudge did I say it's a given? There's a risk. Like there's a risk to me if I was to do it, and unless you catch me on the very rare occasion I drink enough that I think I'm king of the world, you won't catch me calling people out in their bad behaviour unless I fully trust that no harm will come to me.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Yes, but we can't expect one boy/man to stand up to a bunch of other boys/men, can we? It completely depends on the people involved. I would never tell my son to put himself at risk in order to be a hero, hence the distancing and taking the correct steps when it's safe to do so. Not when he's at risk of being beaten up by a handful of others.

Why just one? Do you think you're the only one that is raising their son right?

Young boys and men need to know it's ok to not engage in harmful and sexist behaviours at the very least.

They need to know it's ok to speak out as the next step.

Why is men being violent and scary an excuse for other men to do nothing? Women should stand up to them though.

If NAMALT why are all these scenarios a single male against who knows how many others?

Don't you see how ridiculous is to keep making excuse, anything that men could do is too scary,too hard, impossible etc but expect change at the same time.

Who will drive that change? The tooth fairy?

Good point, whenever one is brave, the others always follow without fail.

Jesus, give me strength.

@WhoWants2Know

Nothing pisses me off more than the "not all men" hashtag. Because it's enough men to make women fear for their lives. What the fuck good is it to point out that maybe a particular guy might not want to rape or murder me or my children?

Enough men coerce and beat and rape and kill women, that it's safer to assume every man you pass is a bad one.

The majority of men don't though.

@FrustratedTeddyLamp

So 30 women killed out of about 34million and and because of 30 men 34million should be punished?

And how many men have been killed by women so far in 2021?

It's becoming very apparent why it's always women's behaviour called into question and policed , even when they are victims.

It's easy,safe and there's no fear of repercussions, violent or otherwise.

Great stuff!

@FrustratedTeddyLamp

I'm not saying they don't I'm just saying to make sweeping generalisations about how shit men (30million+ in this country) are because 30 did something is too broad, yes men should not be killing women and it needs to be sorted but I don't think we can start demonising a country of men when you're talking about 1 in a million

But male violence against women doesn't start and end with murder, it's the whole scale of abuse that women get, see the stats quoted above: 97% of 18-24 year old women (and 80% of women of ALL AGES) have reported being sexually harassed/assaulted that's millions of women, those stats point towards it not being a handful of supposedly very busy men assaulting women, that means its a lot of men.