Too Many Men

[JackieBeaver]

I'm feeling very sad about the Sarah Everard case. Poor poor woman. There's a lot of stories coming out now from women who have experienced feeling unsafe due to the behaviour of men with the hashtag toomanymen trending on Twitter and Green Party peer baroness Jones calling for a 6pm curfew of all men.

We need a change! This can't go on, I'm so tired of feeling unsafe and unable to go about my business without fearing for my safety. I'm worried for my dd also

Enough is enough

@ilovepuggies

Maybe you should all set up a charity from various funding pots ie lottery for example and give workshops to schools, colleges, universities to promote positive behaviour, healthy relationships, how people treat others etc. You could arrange march’s, set up a website and really promote and push for women’s safety. It’s all fair and well having a discussion on a chat forum but I think your energies would be more valuable putting something positive into action.

Why should women have to come up with the solutions for men? We’ve already had to fundraiser for our own DV shelters to escape abusive men, but now we’ve also got to help fix the little darlings too? Why aren’t men taking a more proactive role? If every self-proclaimed decent man challenged other men everytime they heard sexist/misogynistic language or challenged their sexist/misogynistic behaviour I have no doubt it would have a much bigger effect.

I was telling my DH that they appear to have found Sarah and our DS (who's 14), just in from school, stopped to listen.

'Men can be shit sometimes can't they mum?'. I replied that yes they can. Most don't murder or attack women but they can still do or say things that put women down or make them feel uncomfortable. Most men don't mean to be like that, sometimes it's mates egging them on, sometimes it's not realising that what they are saying is offensive because they've never been in the position of feeling threatened or being uncomfortable with words or actions. Sometimes it's because they just don't care. But he can make sure he does his best to stick up for his female friends, respects their wishes and calls other boys out if he thinks their language or actions are wrong. It won't cure the world but it'd be a start.

TBH he and his friends (male and female) seem to support each other very well. Two of his friends came out before Christmas. No teasing, no funny remarks because, as DS said when he told me 'x and y are exactly the same people as they were yesterday - why would we treat them differently just because of the people they prefer to love'. Nice kids and I hope they stay like that.

I have two DDs of 11 and 9 and it really saddens me that so little has changed in terms of the way men view women.

Your son sounds lovely, @LondonJax.

@WhereverIlaymyhat2021

Honestly this thread is so offensive I have two beautiful toddler sons and some of these posts are making me feel like you would like me to drown them in the bath tonight. I’m not joking. I’m shaking reading some of the things on here.

Please don’t drown your babies!

Instead think about how you are going to raise them to respect the half of the population that doesn’t have a penis. How you are going to teach them that women have valid viewpoints, have an equal right to be valued members of society, deserve equal opportunities for employment, education and healthcare . How women are not sex objects to be sniggered over and used as the butt of smutty jokes. How women’s bodies differ to men’s bodies because of their biology, that breasts are functionally designed to nurture babies. How women have the right to autonomy over their own bodies, they have the right not to be touched inappropriately, groped or violated.

You have two sons, that is potentially two young men who are kind and respectful and will in the future be role models for their own sons and for other young men . You have a huge task ahead of you, societal pressures on young men are huge and often very negative , but you have made a good start - you are on mumsnet!

It's a sad world when men can't be thoughtful to strangers who happen to be women

yes it is - because of MALE behaviour - why WOULD a woman find that scary do you think?

He actually at least had the sense to think that being kind is another womans harassment and check himself.

Perhaps we need a concentrated advertising campaign similar to drink driving and wearing searbelts , both of which targetted subjects which to many seemed relatively harmless , telling men to "just stop it "(ie low level abuse and cat calling etc ).working on the 'broken window ' theory that tackling the low level stuff acts as break on behaviours . Look at smoking and drink driving ...massive change in attitudes to them now. Would take time and money, and possible new laws and fines ( though current laws used for causing fear and distress should be adequate )
Also more publicity for those that do it ..we underestimate the power of shame....just a thought anyway

NAMALT
Boys will be boys.
He pulled your hair/hit you/pinched you because he likes you.
It's just banter.
Men can't even talk to women now.
Catcalling/wolf whistling is a compliment.
It's just a mistake/thoughtless.
Women do it too.
Women lie.
What was she wearing?
What was she doing ?

And many many more.

You want change? Stop peddling this bullshit, whether you're a man or a woman.
You want change? Stop making excuses and minimising abuse .
You want change? Stop being devil's advocate .
You want change? Face the truth, no matter how uncomfortable it is. Stop hiding behind straw men and myths .

@TrialOfStyle

Unless my son turns out to be ill or evil in a way that we couldn't help or prevent, I trust that he will grow up to be the way that I and his father want him to be; respectful of everyone, regardless of sex.

In the kindest way (coming from a mother of a son), you have absolutely no idea he will grow up like that as influence does not come purely from family. A sly little rape joke, or a comment on a women's looks, maybe even the odd little grope are still painfully common and you can't police that as your son gets older. It doesn't mean he's 'ill' or 'evil', but just being 'one of the lads'.

It is the job of EVERY MAN to prevent rape, attacks and harassment on women. EVERY SINGLE ONE. The culture towards women needs to change and if every man doesn't play their part, it simply won't. Even if they don't actively do anything to women, by being a bystander they are allowing it to happen.

Playing the NAMALT card just minimises it being a male problem and keeps the responsibility of dealing with it at the victims feet.

So raise your son to not accept rape jokes or other boys/men groping women. Tell him from a young age you never joke about certain things and you never do certain things and if people around him do those things, he should either stand up to them, or if he's too frightened to do so, distance himself from them and tell someone about what he has witnessed.

It's on us as mothers as well to make sure our sons do not grow up to be scum.

If every self-proclaimed decent man challenged other men everytime they heard sexist/misogynistic language or challenged their sexist/misogynistic behaviour I have no doubt it would have a much bigger effect.

I appreciate the sentiment of this, but sadly, I don't think this would work. The kind of men who are blatant about their misogyny (i) aren't going to be dissuaded via a telling-off but (ii) are likely to knock your block off. People inclined to sexual violence are likely to be inclined to non-sexual violence too. We need to be cannier that this. I don't know exactly what the answer is.

@LondonJax: Yes - exactly that! Your ds sounds lovely (and he clearly has great parents).

*So raise your son to not accept rape jokes or other boys/men groping women. Tell him from a young age you never joke about certain things and you never do certain things and if people around him do those things, he should either stand up to them, or if he's too frightened to do so, distance himself from them and tell someone about what he has witnessed.

It's on us as mothers as well to make sure our sons do not grow up to be scum.*

It's on mothers? Just mothers? Not fathers? Not teachers? Not friends parents? Not media? Not anybody else.

It's a woman's just to fix toxic behaviour. Of course.

I will raise my son as best as I can, but I am only one of many influences he will have in his life. There's a limit to what I can do. Misogyny is still ripe and THAT needs tackling. That is not a woman's job - and it especially isn't only their job.

This:

So much porn these days is full of violence and humiliation against women, I think a good start would be to ban it. Men can’t scream “Not all men” when they’re wanking off over a woman having a dick forced down her throat.

Couldn't resist posting this (I can't find it on YouTube, though, for the tune). Again, not to minimise the harm done by male violence - just to show how we all contribute to it. This was written decades ago.

Boys Will Be Boys
(Leon Rosselson)

Boys will be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls will grow up to be mothers

Look at little Peter, isn't he a terror?
Shooting all the neighbors with his cowboy gun
Screaming like a jet plane, always throwing something
I just can't control him. Trouble - he's the one.

Ah but boys will be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls will grow up to be mothers

Look at little Janie, Doesn't she look pretty?
Playing with her dolly, proper little mum
Never getting dirty, never being naughty
Don't punch your sister Peter, now look at what you've done

Ah but boys will be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls will grow up to be mothers

What's come over Janie, Janie's turning nasty
Left hook to the body, right hook in the eye
Vicious little hussy, now Peter's started bawling
What a bloody sissy, who said you could cry

Because boys must be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls must grow up to be mothers

Now things are topsy turvy. Janie wants a football
Peter just seems happy pushing prams along
Makes you feel so guilty. Kids are such a worry
Doctor, doctor, tell me, where did we go wrong

Because boys must be boys, it's a fact of human nature
And girls must grow up to be mothers

www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/Boys_Will_Be_Boys.htm

@TrialOfStyle

*So raise your son to not accept rape jokes or other boys/men groping women. Tell him from a young age you never joke about certain things and you never do certain things and if people around him do those things, he should either stand up to them, or if he's too frightened to do so, distance himself from them and tell someone about what he has witnessed.

It's on us as mothers as well to make sure our sons do not grow up to be scum.*

It's on mothers? Just mothers? Not fathers? Not teachers? Not friends parents? Not media? Not anybody else.

It's a woman's just to fix toxic behaviour. Of course.

I will raise my son as best as I can, but I am only one of many influences he will have in his life. There's a limit to what I can do. Misogyny is still ripe and THAT needs tackling. That is not a woman's job - and it especially isn't only their job.

I would think it's on us mothers seeing as men can't be trusted, yes. I came into my husbands life when he was way too old for me to try and form his mind, so according to some, surely I can't trust that he will be able to raise our son right? How can I trust his future male teachers, the media which is largely run by men?

I'm just going by what people on this thread are saying. It's got to be up to me, his grandmother's, his aunts and his future female teachers.

I've never been so angry to be a woman as I am today. I should be able to walk down any street in any situation without being a target for unwanted attention and hassle from any man. I should not have to modify my behaviour because any man cannot modify his to be a decent member of society. My clothing is not a billboard inviting comment from any random white van passing by, and my having had an extra glass of wine because I was having a good time with friends does not mean I am open to sexual advances on my way home. I support the ideological curfew on men, because I have had a curfew on my evenings, my clothing, my alcohol intake, my journey home and my exercise for the last 25 years, and the situation is not improving, women are still blamed for inviting an attack, more than a man is for perpetrating the attack. I think everyone hopes their son is a decent member of society who would not tolerate violence against women, the mother of the man who raped me sure did, until I left a voicemail on their home phone. But apparently it was my actions that were wrong, he can rape me while I sleep, but it's harassment to tell his family.

@missbridgerton

Nope, your husband is not a victim of misogyny. It does not work both ways, women as a class are being oppressed and men as a class are not. I'm sorry he had to feel a little bit upset though, that must have been difficult for him.

@TrialOfStyle
Agreed, of course it's not just women's job to change society! It takes a whole village to raise a child.

Yes, ginandbearit, I think that could work or go some way towards people checking their behaviour. It shouldn't be necessary but.......

*I would think it's on us mothers seeing as men can't be trusted, yes. I came into my husbands life when he was way too old for me to try and form his mind, so according to some, surely I can't trust that he will be able to raise our son right? How can I trust his future male teachers, the media which is largely run by men?

I'm just going by what people on this thread are saying. It's got to be up to me, his grandmother's, his aunts and his future female teachers.*

Education to men - all men - is what is required. Public service campaigns, regardless of how offensive it is to the NAMALT club. Education is schools. Tough convictions for hate towards women. Call it out, prosecute it.

If toxic influences of men still exist, it's a circular problem. You can try your best with your son, as can I, and I'm sure they will grow up to be decent people, but that's only half the story and it isn't going to fix the ongoing problem. Women have a place to educate their sons, but men have a larger responsibility to be able to call out toxic male behaviour rather than just trying to distance themselves from it and calling it 'offensive' when it's raised.

@Naunet

So much porn these days is full of violence and humiliation against women, I think a good start would be to ban it. Men can’t scream “Not all men” when they’re wanking off over a woman having a dick forced down her throat.

What was the Yorkshire Ripper’s excuse? Or Fred West’s? Porn is an incredibly lucrative industry, it’s never going to be banned. The genie’s out of the bottle now.

You can't have it both ways. You can't say men are terrible and we can't trust a single one because we don't know what they're truly like but at the same time we should trust them to raise our sons. How does that work?

Porn is an incredibly lucrative industry, it’s never going to be banned.

So was slavery.

I thought she was making a point about how the solution to male on female violence is always for women to change their behaviour.