To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

You really can't lie, if you feel that strongly about it and money isn't an issue don't let her take it, just send her to the private school.
It's a horrible system that too many people have no choice but to put their kids through.

My friend’s mum did this - she told my friend that was on the waiting list but told my mum that she’d failed. She still doesn’t know, I never told her!

The quote is there because i agree with that poster, btw.

I can’t believe you would consider this!

As teachers I know that our school gets the list of who has passed the 11+. I would absolutely judge you for telling your child such a lie!

Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out

Lol. Of course she will find out.

I think your job as a parent is to help a child deal with difficult circumstances/disappointments. There are lots of times when you won't be able to control what happens in your dd's life, and to enable her to be able to cope in those situations is a great life skill IMO.

Telling the lie is too big a risk anyway I think, if it did come out she'd feel much worse and not trust you any more. If it doesn't come out she won't understand why you wouldn't let her go to the school that she wanted to go to and that her sister goes to. Just be honest, it cuts out so many problems. x

YABU. You can’t lie to her- that’s awful. She’ll definitely find out as the other DC will tell her at the private school- they’ll all be talking about how they went there because they didn’t take the 11+ or they failed it.

Absolutely do not lie to your child- it’s a massive betrayal and very poor parenting.

If you don’t want the risk of her feeling sad about not passing (which she may actually pass!) then don’t put her in for it. Or just be very grown up and breezy, and say not everyone passes and that’s fine, it’s nothing to get upset about. Don’t lie to her.

If it’s any consolation my DH is friends with a barrister who failed the 11+. He went to private school and a top uni. It doesn’t mean if you fail it that you’re not academic or won’t get a good job. Please don’t let her thing that it does.

NRTFT, but i think considering your younger daughter's self esteem vs older sibs is important

• my younger sister failed 11+/entrance exam for private school which my older sis & I went to. Parents found a school that actually suited her better, but the comparison vs her 'brainy' sisters was bad for her self esteem (and I'm ashamed to say I did tease her about her school a bit when we were teens)

The ins & outs of HOW you do this - I'm no expert but how are you going to explain that you don't want her to go to her 1st choice of school?

You can't do this because the primary school will be told she failed and the other children will ask her if she passed and she will say yes and then the teachers will be going 'why is she lying?'
This will especially backfire if she wants to go to grammar school and she will resent you for not letting her.
I have twins - each passed and choose a different grammar school. But I didn't realise at the time how sensitive my daughter was and this became worse during puberty. The grammar school she chose was a real exam sweat shop and she struggled with her confidence. We ended up pulling her out and putting her in private. But the damage has been done. If I had my time again I would have either encouraged her to go to her brother's more nuturing grammar or probably better still gone straight to private regardless of her having past the 11 plus. Unfort, you can't really tell if a grammar will suit your daughter until she starts, and if you have the funds I might be inclined to go straight to private if you think she is that sensitive that failing her 11 plus will damage her for years. If you think she is that sensitive - how will she feel being a class of exceptionally bright kids but compared to them not necessarily doing as well? At my daughter's grammar the girls who got 94 percent in exams would be upset that other girls got 98 percent.
My son is exceptionally bright and gained 120 for both maths and english in his SATS - but being at a grammar has knocked his confidence because suddenly a child goes from being a big fish in a small pond to a small fish in a big sea.

I think it's a bit weird to lie about this to be honest. At some stage she will need to understand that sometimes she might not pass exams - why not now? You don't have to tell her that she failed miserably, just that she narrowly missed out.

Also, if she is dead set on grammar I could see her feeling more hurt that you are 'forcing' her to go to a different school when you have the choice. I think if she knows she didn't have that choice then it's easier for her to deal with.

I always talked to my children about the school entrance exams as being to decide if that school is the right place for them. The selection process is for the school and the child to decide if they would be a good fit. If the school decides you wouldn't be the right fit (eg not academic enough) or you realise after speaking to the staff that compulsory lacrosse every Monday morning is going to be hell, then that's a good thing. Better to find out now, rather than going to the school and then discovering too late that it's not the best environment for you.

Don't put so much emphasis on "passing" and "success". Or if you do, remember that success looks like living a happy fulfilled life in the place that suits you, not fulfilling some arbitrary goal of your parents.

@ChancesWhatChances

100% positive I’ve read this before, except with son instead of daughter...

Yes, exactly this scenario has come up before.

If she cannot cope with the possible outcome of the test then it’s unethical to enter her.

Also, don't overlook that the private school will likely also have its own entrance exam, which (contrary to popular belief) are not always a walk in the park, and if there are many applicants to choose from then there will be more than a few disappointed children who might have got in on past years with less applicants. Don't assume private schools are automatically "in the bag." I would also take a serious look at the state school options. IF (unlikely but must be considered) a child doesn't get a place either at grammar or at private then a state place will be the only immediate option. If you're planning on private then I'd have more than one option available unless you are very, very confident (more than just thinking "well, they're bright" or "X got in and there's no way they are more bright than my DC") that they would definitely get a place. Some very able children might just not perform well in the exam on the day, no matter how well prepared or how well they did in the practice papers.
It wouldn't necessarily mean "no place", as often interviews and primary school reports are considered as part of the overall picture, but if a child underperforms at exams then they are already in a weaker position for a place compared to the high exam performers. Some private schools take into account interviews and primary school reports but equally, some private schools don't even do an interview and it's all just based on the exam.

Found it: www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4023207-To-tell-my-son-he-scraped-a-pass-when-he-didn-t

Personally I don’t approve of Grammar schools or private education.

But ignoring that prejudice for a moment, I think you’re actually asking the wrong question!
Even if she does (just) pass the 11+, she is not likely to thrive at the Grammar school. Being one of the less academically able pupils she will become acutely aware of that fact, grammar schools can be pressured environments and she will be mixing all the time with others achieving higher grades than herself.
Many many years ago I went to a grammar school, probably just into the top half in ability at that school. It left me with a lifelong feeling that I was not a high-achiever. Despite passing 3 A-levels, and getting a 2-1 degree I’ve always felt not particularly clever, although of course I’m pretty Ok in reality. It’s impacted my view of my abilities all my life.

Imho, your DD is much more likely to thrive at a private school where many of her contemporaries will be of similar or indeed less academically gifted - as many parents will send their children who didn’t pass their 11+. Self-comparison is inevitable, and it could also mean she will stop feeling in the shadow of her older sister - experiencing a different educational environment.

I absolutely wouldn't lie - honesty between you is so important. Maybe the single most important thing.

BUT I really think what is more important is that you make it really clear to her that-

1. You love her exactly the same either way and are on her side and
2. that it can be incredibly close and on the day can go a different way - there is without doubt luck involved, especially where there is no interview.

AND 3 that it is measuring something incredibly specific which doesn't always even guarantee how well you do at a school, but definitely is not a true assessment of your overall intelligence or life chances. It's not that her sibling is the clever one and not her - there are different versions of intelligence, creativity, etc... and hers may be less easy to spot in that particular type of exam.

And finally 4, that the experience of applying, sitting the exam will have taught her things too.

Good for her that she is so motivated though. And lucky for all of you that you have this other option. Obviously reiterate how wonderful the other school is - it must have some advantages over the grammar...? Find out what they are - languages, sports, trips, arts, location...?

And if she gets into the private option that's an achievement too - I am guessing they have an entrance procedure too.

You shouldn't lie to your child, and she needs to learn resilience. You won't always be able to protect her from 'failures', such as when she doesn't get a job she wants etc. So she might as well start learning to deal with these aspects of life now.

Yeah I'd do what you say. It's the self fulfilling prophecy if she thinks she passed she will believe in herself more and most likely be successful. Also being one of 2 siblings like I was the comparisons are always there from people so yeah better she feels that she is smart like her sister. So ud have to lie to everyone not just ur daughter. So ud hav to tell her ur DD1 and friends and close family (grandparents) a lie too. Because itd be unfair if everyone knew but her. But she can never find out that would be damaging.

I haven't RTFT but no, I would never, ever lie about this. You can't enter any kind of "competition" in life without accepting that you may not be the winner - this goes for exams like this. Not good for children to think that they can "win" at everything as it doesn't set them up for the realities of the outside world.
Just be honest from the start, and don't enter the "competition" in the first place.

@Bunnybigears

Terrible idea! If she wants tomgonto grammar and you lie and say she could have gone but you decided to send her to private she will hate you for making that decision and not allowing her to do what she wants. If she knows she failed she will know the decision was out of your hands. Kids have to be aware of their abilities at some point. What if she fails the private entrance exams as well?

Well, quite.

What - lie to your child? Absolutely 100% not - never ever.

You are her rock - and in order to be a secure rock, it needs to be honest.

If she wants to go to the grammar she will be seriously pissed off with you for sending her somewhere else if she thinks she has "passed." You will have decided to go against her wishes in her eyes, on the basis of the information she is allowed.

Apart from all that, one of the skills that we all need to acquire is that of being able to assess ourselves - our abilities, and weaknesses, our skills and deficits. Part of your responsibility as a parent is to help them do this in a painless way; to guide them through their difficulties, but promote their actual skills.

You need to be absolutely honest with her, whist bolstering her self-esteem for those strengths that are hers.

I am quite shocked that you might think of lying to her. It is absolutely abhorrent.

My second DD was nowhere near as academic as our first; they went to different schools where their strengths were promoted. DD2 is a highly successful and self-assured young adult. Her siblings value her skills and there is no sense of ranking them in any way.

I don't think youll do her any harm by lying but looking forward to says, GCSEs, a levels and maybe uni - you won't be able to lie if she doesn't do as well as her sister, and it wouldn't benefit her at that point either. Perhaps now could be a starting point for conversations around different types of intelligence and how academic success is only one type of success? You could try to surround her with it for a while. Books about women who achieved great things not only by getting high marks on exams. I was only reading earlier today about a young woman Mya Rose Craig who started a non profit aged 13 and now at 18 has been awarded an honorary doctorate. Also TV shows, social media etc.

Oops *SATS

And I don't mean to imply that Mya Rose Craig isn't intelligent, she evidently is very very clever, but her success has come in a number not different ways.

Don't cover up her weaknesses, you do her no favours with that. Instead focus on building up her resilience and ability to put her weaknesses in context and also apply herself to counteract them where needed.

Your job is to teach her how to manage herself and her issues. Not to hide them from her to save her discomfort.

If she cannot cope with the possible outcome of the test then it’s unethical to enter her.

Completely agree with PP