To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

It’s aimed at the more capable child ! It isn’t aimed at parents who have children that are not academically able to sit theses exams but insiste in doing so ! Who would do that ? And when your child fails you tell them she got in then she tells her friends that should of got in and they didn’t !! And they go and complain to the school

I was told my younger sister passed the 11+ but my parents chose to send her to the local comp. I’m now wondering if they told a lie to save her feelings. I went to the grammar and they said they decided to send her to the comp to avoid her being in my shadow. It did suit my sister better and we’ve both had successful careers so perhaps they were truthful in what we were told.

However, I had two girls and I remember being very worried about coping with my younger DD not getting a place at the grammar like her sister. But I was never tempted to tell her a lie. In the end they both got a place so it wasn’t an issue.

Our local authority never gave out the marks, they just advised whether you had a place or not. No one ever knew what mark they got and I think that was wise.

Oh absolutely

If you can afford to send her to private school then you can afford to pay private tuition to ensure that she has the best chance of passing. Why not do that until September and the exam?

00:49Onebabygirl

@Incogweeto haven’t read the whole thread, but have read your posts, so sorry if this has already been mentioned - is there a sibling rule at the grammar school? Wouldn’t DD2 be more likely to be offered a place if her 11+ score was borderline because DD1 already attends?

No

@Ferret27

Lying is wrong

This. If you lie and she finds out (which she will at some point), she will never again be sure she can believe anything else you say to her.

A few private lessons are not going to keep her going for long , she will be bottom of the class if she gets in and will need tutoring throughout her child hood

Your DD will most likely have friends sitting the 11+, she will know from her friends when the result emails will be sent, will she not ask to see the email?

I have 2 DDs who sat the 11+, both knew exactly when the results were going to be out and kept asking if the email had arrived.

No! You should NOT lie to your child about their results.
Why are you teaching your child that failure is a bad thing? It isn't, it provides a chance to explore other options. It gives the chance to reflect and problem solve.

I honestly dont understand why parents what to take control of their childrens feelings, it's your job to help them manage/reflect/resolve. It isn't your job to control, you leave them powerless. This is the reason so many kids have anxiety and depression. They're not taught that "ugly" feelings are normal.

How will she learn to deal with failure? How will she empower herself to accept she isnt her sister and she learns differently.

She is her own person. If that means not being academic, what else can do? There are many options.

I definitely do not lie to her.

You have plenty of time to get her a specialist tutor to prepare her for the 11+ they are about 25 -35 pound an hour depending which area you live.

It's not really passing or failing - it's basically a competition and who gets a place is determined by how many are competing and how the others do. There must be loads of children who get scores clustered at or around the pass mark and they will all have similar ability. Some will get in and some won't. Outliers, like your DD1 who got a very high mark will be more unusual.

You think your DD is bright enough to go to the grammar school but in lying to her, you would be treating her as a fool. She will be interested in when the marks come out; she will be interested in how she did in relation to the passmark, regardless of whether her mark is higher or lower. And if it is lower, she has the reassurance that you will send her to a good school that she will be quite happy to attend.

OP I haven’t read this whole thread but I just wanted to say you sound like a lovely mum and both of your daughters are very lucky to have a mum who gives so much thought to their best interests and emotional wellbeing. Schooling is difficult - trying to make the best decisions for your child so they can thrive and fulfil their potential is challenging and complex. I haven’t got any answers on this one - but I think your girls are lucky to have a mum who thinks about them as individuals and is really trying to do the best for them.

Lyings wrong. Did your parents not tell you?

I wouldn't lie to her OP, for all the very sensible reasons others have listed. This would be an untruth you would have to stick with life-long. If your DD2 were ever unhappy at her other school she would resent being there. If DD1 believed her sister had passed but you chose to invest in her over and above DD1 that could be a source of horrible hurt and jealousy. Most children do not pass 11+ so failure isn't a disgrace. You do her a much greater service by helping her honestly to experience and overcome disappointment or failure than trying to pretend they don't exist- it's a vital life lesson and one she can learn painlessly if you have such a good Plan B.
However, you have said DD2 has a good chance of passing the 11+- very best of luck to her with that.

I wouldn’t lie to my child.

OP I don't know if I have much helpful advice, but I just wanted to say you sound like such a wonderful parent that both your girls are lucky to have.

When I took the 11+, it was still the done thing for everyone in my area to do (must have been around 2008). I am the youngest of my siblings. I did pass and with a pretty good mark (134 I think - is it still out of 141?). My sister, the middle child, was the least academic and my brother (the most academic) put a lot of pressure on both of us having aced his. My sister and I both passed and ended up at the same (very good) grammar school, but I often wondered if the other, slightly less selective grammar would actually have suited me better in the long run - but I was pushed into the "better" one by my parents. I find myself wishing they had put as much consideration into which option was actually right for me as you have!

We all did some practice papers at home but had no tutoring or anything. My sister is bright but not particularly academic and she passed easily, so hopefully it will be the same for your DD. She put the most pressure on herself, as the least confident of us, and I feel sad now that both my brother and I acted superior to her later on for a better score.

If a white lie to your DD will save her from feeling bad about herself, I think it's ok. If it ever comes up later, you can tell her why and I think she would understand. I also like your plan of saying it's just a way of finding out which school is better for her - in my house it was definitely seen as "pass or fail" and was pretty horrible at that age!
Good luck to you both - I hope she sails through and it's a non-issue. If I could have chosen private school though, I absolutely would have!

Don’t do it . One of the most important lessons for children to learn is resilience.
My son will miss out on the grammar school he really wanted to go to in September because our version of the 11plus was postponed and then cancelled this year. It’s really difficult to watch him try to make sense of it all . He wavers between sadness and anger atm but I can’t shelter him from the realities of the world.
Your daughter will have her own strengths and shouldn’t be compared to her sister. Give her the option of sitting it but reassure her that if she doesn’t pass it, she can attend the private school you have chosen.

Don't lie. They discuss the scores they get in school and she'll get confused. Ignore advice that you can't tutor it. Do timed practice papers. Look at the questions so they know what they're doing. If they screw up, say so immediately. 25% of places go to kids who go to Review.

This is exactly how we explained to our daughter. We explained to her in the start that we did not care if she passed or not but clarified that simply going through the process will help her boost her confidence and she will get an understanding not the competitive exam process.

Definitely YANBU. But I'd rather not do it that way.

IMO 11+ has never been a pass/fail issue. The "pass" mark depends on the availability of local places and varies drastically from place to place, as well as year to year.

The pass/fail result was always dubious with maybe many children within one mark of the border: a lucky guess or slip of the pen deciding their fate. Since you get an "exact" score, you don't have that consolation. OTH I trained in psychology, worked in education all my life and know all such tests and exams are much less reliable than most suppose.

Your 11+ result may have great consequences for school choice, but otherwise it is of less significance and not an exact predictor of IQ.
Was a pupil and teacher in grammar schools I know they don't suit everyone. Your daughter could well do better and be happier in a good private school, where the focus tends to be much more on the individual child, than in a state school (grammar or not) condemned by the government to focus on averages and targets. Plenty of children get into grammar schools, struggle along at the bottom end and come out with worse results than they might have got being at the higher end of a non-selective school.
Tell her the truth, as far as you maybe inaccurately know it. It is one among many differences she has with her sister and everyone else and probably not the most significant for most people. You obviously value her other attributes and I'm sure other people will do the same. Not many people choose their friends on the basis of their 11+ score.
Anyone who does not "pass" an 11+ , is not so much a failure as a victim of a very rough and ready selection system.

Incidentally, I'm amazed that you're told the score: in my LEA they were never revealed to parents nor pupils.

Personally I wouldn't. If she ever found out she would be more devastated that you lied. You may not tell her but someone else might, school, friend, anyone really.

Never lie to a child. When I was 7, my dad died. He'd been in a long-term stay hospital for 3 years and I only saw him infrequently. My mother lied to me about his death, and I didn't find out until 3 months later, when his funeral had already taken place. To be honest, I never really trusted her again after that.

Don’t lie to her. Children should not be wrapped up in cotton wool and need to learn that things don’t always go your way. We are breeding a generation of children who never learn how to deal with life’s difficulties as their parents mollycoddle them. Failing things and being upset is part of life and how we become resilient. If she can’t deal with this now how will she cope when she gets turned down for a job or denied a promotion.

In my area we don't have grammar schools but they still sit the 11+ to get into the private schools as most of the state secondaries are terrible. The ones that aren't either have small catchments or are lottery-based; both types are vastly over-subscribed.

Even if she doesn't need to take the tests to get into the private schools in your area, she will still be aware of where she is academically in relation to her peers. Please don't lie to her. If you have the money to get her into a private school, then you have the money for a tutor to support her in being more confident with the grammar school exams.

For those saying that the scores are for placement purposes only, please check. The one private school here that still did this has stopped so as to increase its academic rating. I am a private tutor and everyone who took the exams (there are five tests over the course of a morning, not one) used to get in to this school, but not any more. A useful guide is that they need to be getting around 85% in most of the practice tests to guarantee getting a place. Being good at maths and English will not secure a place if they do poorly in verbal and non-verbal reasoning, unless they are also outstanding in music or sport. I find that those who do best at school are those who are not necessarily the brightest, especially if they are also lazy, but those 'average' children who are prepared to put the work in.

Incidentally, my son was one of the few of his friends who didn't take the exams and went to one of the outstanding state schools as we live two roads away. He is currently in his third year of an MEng at our local Russell Group University and is set for a First. We all wanted him to go to school with a mix of people and he thrived there. I passed my 11+ but struggled to settle down to a career for several years, while my husband failed his due to undiagnosed dyslexia and dyspraxia but is now a world-renowned expert in his field and a university senior lecturer. Coping with failure and learning resilience is vital for personal development.