To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

At 11, if you say she passed and decided to send her private, she'll figure it out.

This. Especially when her sister is at grammar and you are presumably happy with that school?

No, please don’t lie - tell her the truth. We have to accept failure as part of life - simply explain that some people “fit” better at Grammar school than others , and you think xxxxx private school is a good choice for her. My mother and father took me out of private school at 13 and sent me to state. They told me it was because the State school was nearer( I was a day girl and had a very long journey each day 1hr 40 mins each way ). I was sooooo upset, and a few months later I found out it was my Dad’s company had gone bankrupt, and my parents couldn’t afford the fees. I was angry on two counts - partly as I was bullied at state school for being a shy, ginger, nerdy, academic kid , and even more so as my parents had lied to me, and I was too embarrassed to tell the girls at state school why I’d been sent there. I had a hard time, but eventually settled in. It didn’t damage me - I went on to get two degrees, a post grad qualification, and I learned to stand up for myself against sh*t people who bullied me. Your daughter will be going to a good school either way, so she won’t have my issues, but don’t lie to her. We all have the right to know the truth, and you won’t always be there to soften the blow of real life and disappointment .

I'm in a similiar situation in that I have a DS who got into all of the very selective indis he applied to, but not grammar. Have another, also very bright DS about to sit exams next year and I don't think i could lie to him and say he got into schools he didn't, just becuase his brother did. But, I have been stressing to both of them, how unfair the selection processes are because they depend so hard on how you do on a single test on a single day and sometimes the wrong questions come up or sometimes you have a bad day. Hopefully if DS2 doesn't get in where DS1 did he'll be able to reflect that this isn't about who he is, just how he did on that day. And if DS2 gets into the grammar, that DS1 didn't, the same applies.
AND almost more importantly, they understand that because they got into x, y and z school and their friends didn't, it isn't a reflection on their intrinsic merit, just how they happened to do on that test on that day.

Utter crazy talk. Children can deal with rejection. Learning curve. You sound unhinged.

How about putting your energy into supporting the failing state school? If more able and capable people were prepared to support and challenge to drive up standards you wouldn’t need to chose, everyone wins.

I would say she was really close but you thought the private school was better so no point in appealing... my son just failed his and he was really upset and still now it’s defo had a impact.

Get her some coaching and do as much as you can with past papers, if you can get hold of them. Make it clear that to go to the grammar she has to pass at the required mark. Put as much effort in as you can but tell her if she does not pass she cannot go to the grammar, that might make her focus on her goal. Do not lie to her. Remember once at the grammar she will have to study hard to keep up with the lessons.

we tell kids 'lying is wrong' yet you are planning on telling your daughter one hell of a lie

My daughter is at grammar school & my much less academic son is currently Yr 5 so will potentially sit the test this year. I have clearly articulated to my children that passing the test gives a greater choice of school, that the decision to take the test or not is one that they have a choice in and we will jointly make a decision taking into consideration the views of their teachers and that we will jointly make a decision about the school we hope that they will go to. They are also aware that I am extremely proud of them, value them as individuals and that all they can do is their best. To not pass is not to fail or be a failure.
I also firmly believe that life doesn't always go the way that we hope and plan so its important to have a certain amount of resilience.
I would rather that we didn't have a grammar school system quite frankly, I think it can be elitist and I would also suggest that it can lead to inaccurate perceptions of secondary schools and their pupils.

Terrible idea

Have you compared the average class size of the grammar with the private? We used to live in an area where there were two highly competitive grammar schools (single sex) and I know for a fact that one of them had huge classes. It was really sink or swim in both schools. If you didn't get minimum grades for GCSEs you were out for sixth form. They didn't want lower grades affecting their league tables. Very high pressure. All clever kids because it was so competitive to get in, and yet those who struggled just sank. Maybe the private might just be more suitable if she's not a high flyer like her sister? (I mean that in the nicest possible way!). I know it's eyewateringly expensive, but you could investigate scholarships and bursaries. Private schools often have some kind of help available. 11+ is such a harsh and divisive system and grammar schools can be harsh places to be when you're not right there at the top.
But whatever you choose, I don't think you should lie. Best of luck. I hope your DD will be happy wherever she goes.

Please don’t lie to her! If she gets the mark she needs this year then great. If she doesn’t, then hope she passes the private school exams.

Celebrate her strengths and remind her that there’s more to life than academic achievement in a couple of tests on a couple of days when you’re 10 years old. Help her look forward to senior school for the opportunities it will offer her to discover more of her talents, interests and abilities. Remind her that hard work is never wasted and people who don’t go to grammar school can achieve happy and successful lives and academic careers if they put their mind to it.

If she will indeed be gutted about ‘failing’ the 11+ then helping her manage that disappointment will be vital - it hurts to miss out on things you want even when you can look back and see so many good things coming out of being forced to take a different path!

Good luck with it all OP

I really wouldn't, however you might want to save her feelings.

One day she will find out and she will be angry you told her a lie. Also, if she scrapes in, it's likely she'll spend the next eight years feeling like an also-ran, in lower sets, in the shadow of academic high fliers of whom there will be many. That can be damaging for self-esteem, I've seen it first hand as a teacher. Also, be wary of sending one private and not the other one. We did that and it was a terrible mistake. She is twenty five and still holds it against us! Even though her brother was offered a scholarship and that's the only reason he went, we still regret it terribly and are still trying to make up for it with deposit, paying for masters degree etc.

I’ve not RTFT but it’ll only damage her self esteem if those around her convey a sense of her academic performance being the thing of greatest singular value. Sure she might feel somewhat disappointed if she doesn’t pass but one would hope that one had equipped one’s child with a broader sense of their own worth than to let that get them down to the point others had to lie in order to make the reality manageable.

I disagree with telling a fairly big lie at age 11. My daughter fortunately passed the 11+ but only by 2 points or 2% - she’s 23 so sorry I can’t recall the criteria.
But my husband at that time and I agreed we would tell her the truth. And if she had failed we were telling her ‘you are simply not right for the style of teaching at grammar’ which is infact true ! Grammar generally is more ‘problem solving as well as academic’ not all children are right for this type of teaching.
I failed the 11+ and was sent to a convent school which I hated ! I now run a healthcare company and have no ‘sadness’ for failing.

Failing is a part of life. They need to learn it young. In my view. She will be fine ! x

Oh please, please do not lie to her. More important than passing the 11+ is her complete trust and feeling of security with you – for the rest of her life.
Play down the importance of the 11+. Nice if you pass but you’ve got a cracking school lined up for her if she doesn’t. Tell her there are more important things in life than Academia. And her kindness and caring and love and fun are some of those things.Millions of people make wonderful lives for themselves who didn’t pass the 11+. (Talk of ‘failing’ the 11+ is quite ridiculous). And if Grammar School is not for her do you want her to be struggling there? Much better in a smaller private classroom where she’ll receive one to one tuition. Best of luck.

I know someone who did this in my daughters year - it was awful because she gave her dd a pretend score which she happily told her classmates all about. Then eventually the truth came out (the mum must have told someone). Everyone thought she was deranged and god know what the teachers thought - very not happy I suspect at the awkwardness it caused, not to mention the poor child

Please don't lie. I trusted my parents implicitly, everything they told me was 100 per cent honest and truthful. When I learnt that tooth fairies and Father Christmas weren't real, it was a real shock that they'd lied to me. How could I ever trust anything they said again?

This is far worse. The implications of telling untruths to family can be widespread. You'll damage your reputation as a role model if it comes to light, and your daughter won't thank you for it. Any upset will blow over in due course. Damaged trust may not.

Don't lie to her @Incogweeto , If my parents had lied to me, and I'd found out I'd failed, I'd have been so insulted at the lie.
It would imply that my parents thought I was incapable of knowing the truth.

Lad in our class at College bombed all his GCSE's. literally crapulous grades, but he took 4 'A' levels {non modular} and got 4 A grades across the board {Highest grade then}

He said ''At school I just didn't want to know''.

If you think she'll not pass it, don't put her in for it.

Lying is really dishonest, and truth is bound to come out, and blow her confidence that she was lied to by her parents of all people.

OP - is there any possibility that you want to do this, at least in part, for you? Do you want to be able to say to family, friends and neighbours that both your children passed the test?
You must know that the great, great majority of children don't take / pass the test. Loads of bright children will be in the same position. Unlike your DD, they will be going to the crap state schools. You really need to get a grip.

Have you actually been around the 'failing' state schools? If you go with an open mind, you might be pleasantly surprised.

I looked around the 'failing' school when DD2 went up and was really impressed. Loads of money had been thrown at it and it was very much on the up. We did decide against it because she would've been the only one from her primary school to go. She ended up at the school DD1 was at which was supposed to be 'the school' to go to. Almost immediately it was taken over by an Academy and the standards feel very rapidly. DD2 got top GCSE results inspite of it but only because she was highly motivated and took it upon herself to download the exam papers and studied the marking schemes.

The statistics and Ofsted reports may tell a story but not necessarily the whole story.
Talk to parents who have DC of similar abilities at the state schools.

In a lot of schools, no one "fails" the 11+ anyway, particularly if you apply for a specific school (obviously doesn't apply in the few "grammar" areas).

There are limited numbers of places in the school, so the "results" letters are usually "you've been given a place" or "you're on the standby list" or "thanks for applying but all places have been allocated to pupils with higher scores" (or similar wording). When we went to our grammar open day, the head spent a lot of time explaining this, i.e. the top x number of pupils are allocated a place, the next y number are put on the stand by list. He made it clear that no one "passes" or "fails", i.e. if the exam is hard one year, pupils get in with a lower pass mark, or if it's easy, then the pass mark is higher. It's simply a numbers game - as the "pass/fail" level has to flex to get the right number of pupils selected.

My son was a lot happier when all that had been explained to him. If he didn't get a place, it was because there were others who scored more highly, not that he was a "failure".

A lot of the "damage" to telling youngsters they "failed" is the way it is conveyed/explained to them. Best not to say "you've failed" but to say "others got higher marks than you and you missed the cut".

This is just wrong on so many levels. If you want to raise a decent human being you need to think long and hard about how entitled you want them to be. It is unbelievable precious to even consider lying about something like this.
If you must put her through an exam you already know she isn't up to, just let her know that it isn't about pass or fail, it's just about trying to determine which school would be best for her.
Seriously though, think on. There is so much wrong with what you are proposing.

If you don't want to lie to her, or put her through a load of pressure, skip the 11+ and the entrance exams and the private tutors, and just send her to the private school?

YABVU. Do not lie to her. That's damaging to both daughters. Stop focusing on failiure! Build her resilience and praise her for her other strengths. I have 2 boys and 1 is academic and the other isn't. They will take different paths but can both be successful.