To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

I disagree with the majority. I’d stress to her that she is a great creative, well rounded child and it’s your job to select the best school for her and her strengths and it might be that that’s a private school. If she insists on doing the test I’d let her and tell her she passed but you’ve decided the other school is a better fit for her.

Don’t tell her, at such a young age, that she isn’t ‘smart enough’ especially when she will know her sister was smart enough.

That’s my (unpopular) view.

@ddl1

One other point, possibly getting slightly off-topic: while you are understandably concerned about preserving dd2's confidence, I think it's important to also keep an eye on dd1. It's not always the case that 'the academic one' is the most confident. I was an academic kid, but had some undiagnosed visual-motor difficulties which sometimes affected me socially and especially physically. People sometimes thought that I was just narrowly preoccupied with academic things, and valued them above other things, whereas nothing could have been further from the truth and I would infinitely have preferred to be less good academically and not had the other problems. I think that that it's just as important that dd1 doesn;t grow up to see herself as 'academically able but hard work, and not well-rounded enough'' as that dd2 doesn't grow up to see herself as 'an academic failure'. (To avoid possible confusion, my username does not come from being, having, or identifying with, a 'dd1', but is actually based on a local politician some years ago, who used to make constant sneering references to 'deficit denying lefties'!)

Thank you, that's such a kind comment.

DD1 is on the autistic spectrum, which explains some things like her hyper focus on academics (maths/numbers in her case) and also some of her more challenging attributes at home... It does also mean that she can be overly confident and insensitive about the academic side of things and often appears a bit lacking in empathy and will say things about (herself) being extremely clever in a very matter of fact way. Feel like I should also add that she's very loving and sporty and has a great positive energy. But you're right, the 'very academic and singleminded' thing is part of a bigger picture with her. DD2 understands that well and knows that DD1 has struggles that she doesn't have, as well as 'gifts' that she doesn't have.

If she's so afraid of failure, and borderline not good enough for grammar, she'd probably find actually being at the grammar school, and one of the bottom ones, stressful. Why make her sit the exam at all?

I don't meant to make it sound like DD2 can't pass the 11+. I think it's quite likely that she will get into her choice of grammar school and this will all be irrelevant.

Nevertheless, I'm so grateful for all your opinions, which have really made me think and opened my mind. I don't know what I'm going to do yet but I have till October!

Don’t tell her, at such a young age, that she isn’t ‘smart enough’ especially when she will know her sister was smart enough.

But it isn't a choice between lying to her and telling her that she isn't smart enough. Why on earth would you frame it like that?

The 11+ is not a measure of how smart you are. It's a measure of how good you are at taking 11+ style exams. Intelligence is so much broader than whether you do well on a particular type of test, and although the grammar schools and their advocates like to claim that practice/tutoring won't make a huge difference in the 11+ test, we all know that it makes all the difference, which is why there is such a big industry around it.

There are so many ways in which a small setback like this could be explained to a child without telling them that they just weren't good enough. That's the conclusion that they'll reach if there is no discussion at all.

I haven't read the full threat but I have been in a situation where I sent one of my children to a school they didn't want to go to. There was tears, resentment and a lot of heartache. They are fine now but my point is - do you really want your daughter blaming you for not sending her to the school she wants when in actual fact you had no choice? Additionally if she does fail it might motivate her to do even better at the school you choose to prove herself - sometimes failure is what drives us. I think lying is the wrong call here

@Incogweeto

I'm confident she wouldn't find out. There would be no reason to. And if she did find out one day then I'd explain that I didn't think she should have to feel like a failure when she was little. When she was older she'd understand it wasn't a failure. And would most likely have the benefit of an excellent education to buffer any disappointment. But I do get that most people are saying IABU and I'm not set on this course of action so will give it lots of thought.

Don't try to justify telling your daughter a lie. Just don't lie to her. It's that simple. Do not lie to her.

@gottakeeponmovin

I haven't read the full threat but I have been in a situation where I sent one of my children to a school they didn't want to go to. There was tears, resentment and a lot of heartache. They are fine now but my point is - do you really want your daughter blaming you for not sending her to the school she wants when in actual fact you had no choice? Additionally if she does fail it might motivate her to do even better at the school you choose to prove herself - sometimes failure is what drives us. I think lying is the wrong call here

Thanks for your thoughts. I'm not worried about the resentment - she's got a preference but is happy to go to either school.

I take your point about failure being motivating though.

Yes, they'll both definitely want to know the score. DD2 probably wouldn't have known much about it but DD1 was very sharp and knew the whole process inside out and was ready to know exactly what she got

So are you planning to make up the mark? What if she gets excited and wants to see the letter?

When I was a kid, my father got it into his head that we shouldn't see our school reports if they were good because it would make us bigheaded. Naturally we found out where he kept them and read them anyway . Never underestimate what children will do if you try to hide information about themselves from them.

@Nith

Yes, they'll both definitely want to know the score. DD2 probably wouldn't have known much about it but DD1 was very sharp and knew the whole process inside out and was ready to know exactly what she got

So are you planning to make up the mark? What if she gets excited and wants to see the letter?

When I was a kid, my father got it into his head that we shouldn't see our school reports if they were good because it would make us bigheaded. Naturally we found out where he kept them and read them anyway . Never underestimate what children will do if you try to hide information about themselves from them.

It's all done online. We get the score through a portal (with password etc). We don't get a letter.

I think learning about how to deal with failure at an early age is not a bad thing if you are prepared for it and tackle it with her correctly...i.e. reminding her of her self worth in so many other ways.

Think that's better than all the potential lies/findings out and a child that doesn't know how to deal with failure. Also, what about DD1? are you going to tell her that you just didnt want to spend a load of money on her going private school even though they both passed 11+?

I genuinely can't believe you're still considering doing this.

It's a completely shit thing to do. It's not protecting your DD from anything, or helping her in any way. It's just setting you both up for the inevitable moment (maybe many years in the future) when she finds out, and realises that she can't trust you or believe a word you say.

If she finds dealing with failure difficult, work through that with her, support her, tell her that not passing the 11+ does not mean she's failed..... just don't lie.

Leaving her to remain unable to deal with failure is setting her up for a miserable adulthood.

Surely it's not a matter of 'passing' or 'failing' it? Don't they just draw the line after working out how many spaces they have available?

Our son 'failed' but not all the spaces were taken up, due to people moving out of the area or just changing their mind. There is usually an appeal process. DS was only 3 points off the 'pass' mark. We appealed and he was offered a space. Even now I don't think of it as him having 'failed'.

Honestly, a message that " the pass Mark was X And you got Y so you will be going to private school" With a hug and a chat about it is surely better than years of subterfuge.
You may well find that DD2 is just as "academic" as DD1.I know a fair few siblings where the less academic (apparently) in teens went further because they had the stamina and curiosity in their subject. Quite a few "bright" children are blessed with good memories and opportunities. When the work starts getting tough, they are not always equipped with the skills they need.

I agree - it's gobsmacking that the OP is STILL considering doing this. It's very controlling, frankly. Let the child live her life.

I once told lied by omission to my daughters about a medical issue. I didn't want to worry them and it seemed the right thing to do.

Of course they found out I'd kept it from them, and while they empathised, I know I lost their trust. They still love me and like me, but now they worry more, because they know they can't assume that if I say things are okay, they are. And I suspect that they continue to see me as not an honest person.

I think my lie was more understandable than yours, but I hugely regret it, because it has had/will have ramifications for our whole lives.

I don't know how to say this more strongly. Do NOT lie to your child.

Do NOT lie to your child. - well exactly. It is, as a pp has said, unbelievable that the OP still feels this is an acceptable thing to do.

It is not - absolutely not, and all this talk of tutoring or not tutoring etc. is irrelevant to the fact that you should never ever lie to your child.

When she gets to the troubling teens and is unsure of what she should be doing about say a boyfriend, where can she turn if she cannot trust her mother?

I think if you prepare your daughter well enough OP, she will be able to cope with any outcome. I explain to my kids that they are all really smart, but that you can be smart in slightly different ways. I also explain that I know they are smart because teachers have told me, because I can tell by talking to them (you can give examples here of clever things they've said/done/achieved). However, one exam doesn't always capture that. You can be the smartest person in the world but sometimes bad luck on the day means that you don't get a mark that represents you. You might accidentally miss a question, you might misunderstand or misread a question etc. Usain Bolt could trip up one race and come last but we would all still know he is super fast at running!
If your DD2 is sensitive then a big part of this may be that she feels the exam results would label her or that YOU might think less of her if she were to fail. Firstly don't call it "failing" just refer to "entry requirements" and assure her she would meet the entry requirements for many, many schools. Secondly, tell her very clearly that you KNOW her to be smart. That is a fact to you and no test result will ever change that. If she gets below the entry requirements she has still done really well and you still love her just as much, in fact you love her MORE for coping with these knockbacks we all get in life. Remind her that no matter how smart or kind or talented we are, sometimes things don't turn out the way we want. However, you still love her and believe in her and know she will be a success at school and in life. I know you want to protect her but please don't lie to her about this. Please do everything you can to prepare her, protect her and be honest with her. It's tough being a parent, but you sound great and I think you will be able to get the right balance in the end.

This is cr ap. Your daughter will get over it. It will help her build resilience with percevied 'failure' and perhaps give her the opportunity to thrive. I failed my 11plus. I went to Oxford Uni at 18. Some kids get spurred on to do better after not passing the 11 plus. it depends how it is dealt with.

What will cause you problems is, if the lie is maintained and your other kid is at a grammar school, she'll want to know why she didn't get the private school treatment. It will drive a wedge and will undoudtedly lead to future problems. Kids can always handle truth better than lies.

If , for one moment you think she won't pass you need to
a) get her as much additional tuition support as possible
b) never let her know you think she may not pass
As her mother you should have unshakeable belief in her. Give her extra tuition and past papers to work through.
And lots of love!

Lies stay. Her school will probably be told if she’s passed, they are told in my borough - I would check. She will tell all her friends she’s passed & you will have to deal with the congratulations from her friends parents - yet her teachers will know she hasn’t?

My son just failed his, it's destroyed him and he's upset about it. His school is shocked as he's very bright and academic but apparently he raced through it and finished 15 mins early so clearly doesn't yet grasp exam technique.

I digress, the system sucks and shouldn't be there. Having seen my son's reaction I would lie, lie and lie again if I could have the time over. I'm not sure he'll ever feel confident academically.

Surely SHE should have some say in which school she goes to????

My son failed something in sport massively and publicly once. It was the best life lesson. He was gutted, humiliated, upset, his confidence took a knock and it was all just awful. Then he rebuilt. He has so much more resilience now. He is stronger and has a better understanding of his strengths and weaknesses. As a result, he has been highly successful. Tell her. Be Kind. But be honest.

Another high achieving child here who never learned to come second and it fucked up my life for years. Failure and how to deal with it is part of life and if you can't do it sanely, well, that's where your self-esteem takes a dive.
She'll probably pass, and that's OK. Sorted,.
But surely your job is to make her realise that she's amazing with terrific qualities that are unique to her. It's a tricky one, but Hmmn....lying's both risky and iffy.