To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

It's also just occurred to me that the lie doesn't stop with her pasd mark. You will also need to lie that you think the private school is better for her, when you actually don't think that. You will suddenly have to big up the private school and how perfect it is for her AFTER the results, since you want her to go the grammar if she does pass (so you don't want her to think the private school is perfect for her in case she passes). So, results day and... Oh my dd2, you passed, well done, but we've actually suddenly decided the private school is just the place for you. Fishy!!

I think you underestimate her ability to sniff out the inconsistencies here. As an 11 year old, I would have sensed something dodgy was going on.

Wrong on every level to do this. I can't imagine having lied to my DS about his 11 plus results . If there is only one other child in the class doing the test , then there isn't going to be lots of talk about it at school. Surely the fact that it isn't a big issue at school is a good reason to tell her the truth. It's not as if the majority of children in the class will have passed and all be talking about going to Grammar school . Will she want to know her score ? Will there be a cut off score that gets accepted to grammar school? What if she tells others her score and someone else with a higher score didn't get accepted? Maybe that's not the way it works in your location but it is in mine

I like that nice, casual explanation. I'm going to store that one up in my mind too.

Tbh, what I wish I'd known when I was 11, but only discovered years later, is that the vast majority of kids who "passed" the 11+ had been doing practice papers/having tutoring for years. They knew exactly what to expect from a verbal reasoning paper, whereas I was seeing one in the actual 11+ exam for the first time.

My best friend from primary school later told me that she had been doing test prep every week since she was 7. I also learned that a large proportion of kids at the grammar had gone to a private primary school that basically existed to get them through the 11+. It turns out that my parents were well aware that other kids were practising at home or being tutored (I discovered 30 years later!) but didn't think to share this with me at the time. They didn't say anything at all about it because they didn't want me to feel bad that I had "failed". Not being an idiot, I obviously put two and two together and realised that I must have failed the test, but I was too embarrassed/ashamed to ask my parents about it. In the absence of any other discussion about it, I blamed my own inadequacies for the "failure", whereas an open conversation about the limitations of the test would have helped me to process it and put things in perspective. As I learned decades later, one of the reasons that my parents didn't bother preparing me for the test was that they didn't think that going to the grammar was that important because they were confident that dsis and I would do well wherever we did. I wish I'd known that at the time too!

Unless you have a really convincing argument as to why the private is better for dd2 when the grammar is better for dd1, there is a very real risk that your dd will figure things out for herself, and you just won't know what conclusions she may be drawing in her own mind.

Terrible idea. What if she begs you to go to the grammar? And what if she finds out? Can’t you just get her a really really good tutor?

You've all given me a lot to think about, thank you.

We have always framed it to DD as that it's a way of finding out what school is right for the child, nothing more. I've talked about 'grammar school brains' being a very specific type of learning and thinking, which DD1 has, and there being lots of other types of brains and learning that are better for other schools. I've also been a lot less outwardly enthusiastic about the grammar with her as I'm less sure she'll get in, and focused more on some of the other possibilities. She knows she gets a treat for working hard and taking the 11+, not for the score or anything that comes after. She's not tutored and only has one friend doing it (who is being tutored but isn't very academic). The pressure, unfortunately, is all coming from her. She is bright and hard working and a bit of a perfectionist (if she gets 11/12 for spellings she will be disappointed) hence me thinking that her thinking (/knowing!) she's not achieved the score she needs might be very difficult for her.

If you've had that conversation with dd1, there is also a risk that she will figure out what you've done, and it's the kind of thing that a kid could easily let slip in an argument or something. Especially if there is ever any resentment about money for school fees making it difficult to afford other things.

@AlexaShutUp

I like that nice, casual explanation. I'm going to store that one up in my mind too.

Tbh, what I wish I'd known when I was 11, but only discovered years later, is that the vast majority of kids who "passed" the 11+ had been doing practice papers/having tutoring for years. They knew exactly what to expect from a verbal reasoning paper, whereas I was seeing one in the actual 11+ exam for the first time.

My best friend from primary school later told me that she had been doing test prep every week since she was 7. I also learned that a large proportion of kids at the grammar had gone to a private primary school that basically existed to get them through the 11+. It turns out that my parents were well aware that other kids were practising at home or being tutored (I discovered 30 years later!) but didn't think to share this with me at the time. They didn't say anything at all about it because they didn't want me to feel bad that I had "failed". Not being an idiot, I obviously put two and two together and realised that I must have failed the test, but I was too embarrassed/ashamed to ask my parents about it. In the absence of any other discussion about it, I blamed my own inadequacies for the "failure", whereas an open conversation about the limitations of the test would have helped me to process it and put things in perspective. As I learned decades later, one of the reasons that my parents didn't bother preparing me for the test was that they didn't think that going to the grammar was that important because they were confident that dsis and I would do well wherever we did. I wish I'd known that at the time too!

Unless you have a really convincing argument as to why the private is better for dd2 when the grammar is better for dd1, there is a very real risk that your dd will figure things out for herself, and you just won't know what conclusions she may be drawing in her own mind.

Thank you so much for sharing all that. This is a really good reminder of where kids can go to in their minds if we don't talk to them and help them understand things. I know there have certainly been things in my childhood that I worried about at the time and had got totally the wrong end of the stick, but really held the beliefs for years because nobody thought to talk to me about things.

This isn't a lie that will be told and then it's over. This is a lie that you will have to maintain for the rest of her life, and to vastly more people than just her.

This is not a way to live.

Older DD was offered a scholarship to private school and turned it down. I agreed with her choice as the grammar is better for her.

So you (rightly) allowed you older DD to choose which school she attends.

But if your younger DD doesn't pass, even if she desperately wants to attend the grammar and begs you to do so, you will make her go to the private one. She won't know that she didn't get in to the grammar, so in her eyes you will be forcing something on her when you let her older sister have the choice.

Just don't do it, it's a terrible idea.

She is bright and hard working and a bit of a perfectionist (if she gets 11/12 for spellings she will be disappointed) hence me thinking that her thinking (/knowing!) she's not achieved the score she needs might be very difficult for her.

All the more reason for her needing to learn how to deal effectively with the failure, imo, and to understand that it's perfectly normal and natural. I should know. I was one of those bright, hard-working, perfectionist kids myself, but sadly, I learned instead that failure was something that wasn't spoken about.

It's only as an adult that I have been able to see that my mum's own very difficult feelings around failure prevented her from talking to me about it properly. I get why she didn't, but I still live with the impact of that. I was determined not to pass on my own unhealthy attitudes about failure to my dd.

When she's 35 she may still be grumbling about not being allowed to go to the school she wanted, and how that ruined her life. People can hold on to hurts like that for a long time. Are you going to maintain the lie then?

I know there have certainly been things in my childhood that I worried about at the time and had got totally the wrong end of the stick, but really held the beliefs for years because nobody thought to talk to me about things.

Ah, this explains where you got the idea of lying to her from. Even if DD2 doesn't smell a rat, DD1 probably will.

hence me thinking that her thinking (/knowing!) she's not achieved the score she needs might be very difficult for her.

Yet you think that she’ll be just fine with ‘passing’ the test for the school she wants to go, to but being told by you, she’s now not going there?!

I think you are setting both you and her up for a fall. In the first place there will be others from her school that know the truth. Also when she does find out she is likely to feel that she wasn’t good enough for you. So what if she does fail, she probably shines at other things. Passing your 11 plus is not the end of the world surely love her and be honest with her for who and what she is for both your sakes.

@Howshouldibehave

hence me thinking that her thinking (/knowing!) she's not achieved the score she needs might be very difficult for her.

Yet you think that she’ll be just fine with ‘passing’ the test for the school she wants to go, to but being told by you, she’s now not going there?!

Yes.

I honestly think passing the test means much, MUCH more to her than actually going to the school. Having both options and us choosing one I really think will be fine with her. But knowing she 'had' to go with that option as the other wasn't open to her will make her see her excellent option - and herself - very negatively.

@MerryMarigold

I know there have certainly been things in my childhood that I worried about at the time and had got totally the wrong end of the stick, but really held the beliefs for years because nobody thought to talk to me about things.

Ah, this explains where you got the idea of lying to her from. Even if DD2 doesn't smell a rat, DD1 probably will.

LOL no! I just mean kids get things in their head and worry about them. DD1 isn't at all a worrier but DD2 is very much in her head. DD1 doesn't look for the reasons anyone is doing anything but DD2 is always overthinking and trying to please people and things like that, and I think I fall more into DD2 category for sure.

I wouldn’t lie to her. I would present it as a win-win. If you pass, great, you’ll go to the lovely grammar school and if you don’t great, you’ll go to the lovely private school. You could frame it as the test will help us to decide where you’ll be best suited and happiest. If she passes, I’d start her off in the grammar school, but if she doesn’t achieve a high score she might struggle and end up switching to the private school later on.

It's NEVER a good idea to lie to your child ... It's been a tough year education wise , if she doesn't pass then home schooling and covid could be used as a factor to smooth it over and if you are going to send her to private school if she doesn't pass then she won't be at a disadvantage anyway ...

I think it's a silly idea as she will surely want to go if she thinks she's passed?

Just tell her how it is I would say. It's not as if she's going to end up at an awful failing comp if she doesn't pass.

I do think children need to understand that life can be a challenge. This isn't especially challenging as the alternative sounds nice.

I went to grammar school but it was different back then - everyone just took the exam in the area. I have a couple of friends who maintain they passed but never went. Maybe their parents did the same? 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Secretroses

If I was the older sister, I might feel resentful that my parents had chosen to send my younger sister to a private school for no good reason. It would feel like favouritism.

That's your issue, why should it be the daughter's? I went to Grammar, sister private. It never crossed my mind to care.

Trust is so important in human relationships. As she heads into teen years don't you think trust and mutual respect is pretty sacred?

No way in hell would I lie to an 11yr old about something as big as this. The chances of getting found out are fairly high and the consequences of her finding out you lied to her are that she will not trust you about anything else.

What kind of example is it to her to show her that it's OK to lie to avoid difficult discussions?

If you are voluntarily putting her in for this exam that hardly anyone else is doing then you should own your choice and all its consequences good and bad including the risk of her failing and feeling bad about that. If you feel she isn't able to take that possible outcome then surely the logical choice is don't put her in for it.

I would have asked my child if they want to do the exam and try for the grammar school and discussed the risk of not passing and the safety net that you'd pay for private.

If your children are of different academic abilities then they will both be aware of that already. There will be many more opportunities for it to come up eg GCSEs, A levels, uni, career choices. You should probably start handling it as you mean to go on ie discussing different strengths and weaknesses rather than lying.

OP, you sound like a lovely, caring parent, sensitive to your DDs feelings. I think your approach around managing expectations seems good and explaining how much luck there is in tests eg DD1 would have got a different result on a different day.
I would try to find a way to tell her the truth though. I have always encouraged my children to be honest in life and I value honesty very highly. I also want them as teens to come to me and tell me anything. I think if they found out (or suspected) I had lied to them, they would never trust me again and wouldn't see the point in being honest with me in return. If either child ever challenges this in the future you will have to lie to their faces or admit a previous lie and risk losing the trust they have in you. I don't know the answer and I feel sure you will support your daughter through this. Just consider trying to find a way to be honest with her in as gentle a way as possible.

I honestly think passing the test means much, MUCH more to her than actually going to the school. Having both options and us choosing one I really think will be fine with her. But knowing she 'had' to go with that option as the other wasn't open to her will make her see her excellent option - and herself - very negatively.

But OP, the point is that it's your job as a parent to help her understand how stupid it is to judge yourself so negatively on one tiny blip. The fact that she is invested in passing the test but doesn't actually care about the school is concerning.

Just think about it. You won't be able to protect her from every failure or disappointment in the future. Whatever pattern of thinking she develops as a child will govern how she responds to those failures and disappointments in the future. Do you want her to carry on judging herself negatively for every slight setback, as she does now, or do you want to break that cycle by showing her that it doesn't have to be that way?

I wouldn’t lie to her.

My siblings passed the 11+ and went to grammar, I was the only one that didn’t pass. I don’t remember it really to be honest, I think I just accepted that they were more academic than I was. I definitely enjoyed my secondary school years more they enjoyed theirs. Granted it’s all different now as the tests used to be done at school as part of the school day and now it’s much more of a big deal and more pressure to sit it on a Saturday with hundreds of others. The outcome is still the same though, if you don’t pass you don’t pass and it’s better for everyone to be honest about that, you won’t be doing her any favours letting her think she’s achieved something that she absolutely hasn’t.

@Yebanksandbraes

OP, you sound like a lovely, caring parent, sensitive to your DDs feelings. I think your approach around managing expectations seems good and explaining how much luck there is in tests eg DD1 would have got a different result on a different day. I would try to find a way to tell her the truth though. I have always encouraged my children to be honest in life and I value honesty very highly. I also want them as teens to come to me and tell me anything. I think if they found out (or suspected) I had lied to them, they would never trust me again and wouldn't see the point in being honest with me in return. If either child ever challenges this in the future you will have to lie to their faces or admit a previous lie and risk losing the trust they have in you. I don't know the answer and I feel sure you will support your daughter through this. Just consider trying to find a way to be honest with her in as gentle a way as possible.

Thank you so much @Yebanksandbraes (and I love your username).