To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

my grandmother sent one daughter to grammar school and one private school ( failed 11+ in the bulge year). It did not end well the girls have resented each over for over 60 years due to schooling. the grammar school sister over the money spent on private school, the private sister always feeling a failure for failing. This is why the grammar system can be awful for families.
Op you are in a no win situation if your girls end up at different schools sorry

But... DD2 is ME as a child. I just see it and I know that internally, if she doesn't get the score, she will be completely crushed and feel bad about herself forever.

Ah. This is interesting.

No, she isn’t. She is her own person who happens to have some personality traits in common with you. You’re projecting your own childhood personality on to her and not giving her the chance,’or the support, to surprise you with what she can handle.

of course you should tell her the truth. Why let her spend her life feeling superior to all the other children who didn't pass/more likely didn't take the 11+ . She'll already feel better than them by going to private school.

You are at risk of creating a much much bigger issue.

She is 11 and presumably pretty bright if she is going to be taking the 11 plus, don’t treat her like a baby and don’t set her up to not be able to cope with failure in life.

Bit harsh @Incogweeto. Of course her result (or fake result) will affect how she sees herself and her abilities in the context of her peer group. That's what this whole thread is about. She can be as delightful and empathetic as they come, but she will have an unwarranted sense of academic superiority to the others. It's only human, especially at that age. There might only be one other in the class, but she'll meet other kids who sat the 11+ in the future, kids who went to comprehensives, and it would be quite natural if she (even unconsciously) saw herself as being in a different category to them.

@Incogweeto I went to a grammar and the bitchiness was awful. I was very unhappy there. Please don’t assume only kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are bullies. If your daughter doesn’t keep up with the work, it will be worse for her confidence than not going.

OP A lie to your DC is always going to be a lie. the trouble with telling her she failed when she's older is it could cast a cloud.

One of my parents admitted a honking great lie from my childhood when I was 45. I was older so it shouldn't matter right? wrong. It has put an entirely different slant on everything to do with them, when I think about them there's a bloody great blot on it, I now inwardly question everything they say to me and always will.

would have told me off and penalised me for failing. your parents would have put you up for something they'd know you'd fail, then bollock you for failing? fucking hell.

failing at stuff is part of life, very important for DC to get used to and it happens as a matter of course all the time. deliberately setting an 11 year up to fail is as shitty as lying.

@redspecial

OP A lie to your DC is always going to be a lie. the trouble with telling her she failed when she's older is it could cast a cloud.

One of my parents admitted a honking great lie from my childhood when I was 45. I was older so it shouldn't matter right? wrong. It has put an entirely different slant on everything to do with them, when I think about them there's a bloody great blot on it, I now inwardly question everything they say to me and always will.

would have told me off and penalised me for failing. your parents would have put you up for something they'd know you'd fail, then bollock you for failing? fucking hell.

failing at stuff is part of life, very important for DC to get used to and it happens as a matter of course all the time. deliberately setting an 11 year up to fail is as shitty as lying.

In their eyes, there was no reason to fail at anything...

@BalancedIndividual

Lol, my parents would not only have told me, but would have told me off and penalised me for failing. Parents these days need to grow a pair.

This happened to me, trust me parents do not need to grow a pair. When you’re told your entire secondary school life that you’re a failure by the people who are supposed to love you unconditionally it stays with you, trust me.

@Incogweeto I think you sound like a wonderful mother for wanting to protect your daughters feelings. I think you are the person who knows their child best and if she really won’t cope then not telling her the truth might be the kindest option. It’s not about teaching our children resilience, flipping heck haven’t they been through enough recently, but helping them move to the next stage of childhood without crushing their spirits.

Is there any way that without actually lying you could tell her that she did much better in the private school entrance exam than the 11 plus so you think that would be a better option for her? Take away the pass or fail and just look at the scores?

I don’t know much about private or grammar schools as there are neither in our immediate area, but if this were me I would not lie to my dc and tell them that they’d passed if they hadn’t. As sad as it is for children disappointment is a part of life and they need to learn that it’s ok sometimes if things don’t go their way as long as they pick themselves up and move forward. I’m just grateful that my ds was as determined and committed to his education as he was when he went to secondary. He went to a state school in special measures and loved in. He came out with 7A*’s and 6 A’s at Gcse. Not bad considering on paper coming from a not so desirable area with a school in special measures meant the chances of him doing as well as he did at school and college (and about to start uni) were very slim indeed.

Seems like a bad idea to lie if it's going to be something that has to be maintained permanently. Is it even possible to maintain permanently - I mean surely teachers etc will know and they can hardly be sworn to secrecy?

But I think the real problem here is the perception that she "needs" to believe she has passed the 11+.

Rather than lie I think I'd prefer to be honest about the 11+ result, whatever that is, and also honest about the fact that it's not the be all and end all. Everyone is different, everyone has strengths and weaknesses. Doing well academically does not make you a better person or more valuable. Plenty of people are below the average at school and go on to have very happy and successful careers.

Do you as parents feel like she'd have "failed" by not passing the 11+? If not, then I think you just need to make sure she keeps the result in perspective. If so - well, then that's the real issue right there.

@Ibelieveinyou

This happened to me to, it just made me more resilient though imo. Are you also an ethnic minority by any chance? (I and my parents are)

But... DD2 is ME as a child. I just see it and I know that internally, if she doesn't get the score, she will be completely crushed and feel bad about herself forever.

OP, I get that you're projecting your own thoughts and feelings onto how you think your dd might react to not getting in, but being crushed by something like this really isn't a healthy reaction. How about you help her to re-write the script so that she isn't crushed by minor setbacks of this nature? How about helping her to realise that "passing" or "not passing" the exam for one school isn't a reflection of her value as a person, of the future success that she is likely to experience, or even of her academic ability, because the 11+ is actually a very unreliable measure? How about preparing her for the possibility of failure so that she knows it's a realistic possibility and has a game plan for processing that disappointment if and when it happens? How about helping her to recognise that there is merit in just giving things a go without being too attached to the outcome, because sometimes, the unexpected twist in the road leads us on a much more interesting and rewarding journey than the one that we had originally planned for ourselves?

You write as if it is inevitable that your dd will be "crushed" by this result, but you need to really pause and reflect on why you think this will be the case. What insecurities are there in your mind that are causing you to believe that this would be such a devastating piece of news? Your dd is very young, and she will take her cues from you - the way in which you choose to frame it for her will have a huge impact on how she interprets what has happened. You could use this as a really positive opportunity to build her confidence and resilience, helping her to understand that there are many different routes to success, and that she is loved and valued no matter what, or you could lie to protect her from the truth and hope that she never finds out that her "failure" was so shameful that you couldn't even bear to tell her about it.

I mean this kindly, but you really need to wobble your head a bit. I suspect that you have unresolved issues around failure yourself that you are projecting onto your daughter. It isn't the end of the world if she doesn't get into the grammar, and she does not need to be crushed by the experience. She just needs to accept it, learn from it and move on to the next thing. That's what mentally healthy people do with failure.

Underlines the whole UK stance of Academic = Good, Technical is rubbish.
If she fails the 11+, maybe she wouldn't thrive/be happy/succeed through 7 years academically focussed study?

But... DD2 is ME as a child. I just see it and I know that internally, if she doesn't get the score, she will be completely crushed and feel bad about herself forever.
Well, yes, if that's what you tell her and train her to feel.
If you have secondary age children, presumably you are mid 30s? Time to grow up and stop bemoaning what you did or didn't do twenty years ago.

@BalancedIndividual is this cultural? I think there's every reason for my DC to fail at things, I expect it and expect them to figure out for themselves how to deal with it. that's how they learn and become resilient and independent.

just goes to show, as parents we all fuck it up in our own different ways 😁.

It is a tough one. My academically bright eldest child didnt want to take it so I didnt make him - much to the horror of classmates parents . Our secondary choices are fine and ds has fitted on well. I'm glad I dodged the bullet tbh as his next sibling is severely dyslexic and was already feeling he should sit the 11+ because that what everyone does but now the pressures off as he sees that his brother loves his high school.

Your way of thinking is bizarre @Incogweeto. The 11+ result can definitely be vastly improved through tutoring, yet you refuse to get her a tutor. You have the opportunity here to make sure she passes but you're not taking it. Instead you are considering lying to her.

Get her a tutor and then the issue of lying won't arise.

@BalancedIndividual is this cultural? I think there's every reason for my DC to fail at things, I expect it and expect them to figure out for themselves how to deal with it. that's how they learn and become resilient and independent

I think there are definitely some different cultural factors at play. I certainly know some Asian parents who might not necessarily punish their children for "failing" but would probably blame the child for not having worked hard enough. It sounds awful to western ears, but in a way, I can see that it sends quite an empowering message - rather than the "never mind, dear, you tried your best but it just wasn't good enough" message that we sometimes accidentally give to our kids when we try to be kind about their failures, it sends a message that the parents have faith in their child's innate ability and the child just needs to work harder/try a different strategy next time in order to be successful. Just to offer a different perspective...

Personally, I would never get mad at dd for failing, but I do try to get her to think about what she can learn from it, would she have done anything differently etc. Failure can be a great teacher if we aren't too afraid to confront it head on.

@ThePricklySheep

I totally agree. I think Michael Morpurgo has spoken about how he felt like a failure at 11 and it took him a while to get over.

I failed mine. I was devastated at the time. To this day I still lie and say 11+? I never took it if the subject comes up.

So yes i would lie.
No child should be made to feel a failure at such a young age.

@Incogweeto

I'm confident she wouldn't find out. There would be no reason to. And if she did find out one day then I'd explain that I didn't think she should have to feel like a failure when she was little. When she was older she'd understand it wasn't a failure. And would most likely have the benefit of an excellent education to buffer any disappointment. But I do get that most people are saying IABU and I'm not set on this course of action so will give it lots of thought.

Hmmm... But do you realise that it's equally possible to go to a private school and come out of it feeling like a failure? For example, you can go to a private school and spend your school-life in the bottom 25% of the class for almost everything (as was my experience) and come out feeling like a bit of a thicko.

I guess what I'm saying is that going to a private school is absolutely no guarantee of developing confidence or self-worth. Indeed, it can have the opposite effect.

Rather than push someone who perhaps is not academic down a route that places massive emphasis on academia, it might be better for her in the long run to be allowed to find her own, less academic, path.

Where on earth is this place with these hideous schools that aren't fit for purpose?

It's framed here that the grammar takes the top 90 pupils in the exam, that pupils have done well to be considered to take the exam & that most who take the exam won't get in. It is not framed as 'failure' to not be in the top 90.

I think Michael Morpurgo has spoken about how he felt like a failure at 11 and it took him a while to get over.

Isn't Michael Morpurgo a great example, though, of someone who failed his 11+ and wasn't held back by it? There must be hundreds of examples like this.