To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

I'd be honest with her, please don't lie. Just use this time to tell her if she wants grammar we need to really crack down and study etc. It's a great learning curve if she doesn't pass, I was always taught failure was not an option and now even the slightest failure cripples me. I wish someone had taught me that not everyone wins everything and that is PERFECTLY OK. It's a great opportunity to either show hard work pays off or failure is fine, because it's not failure really. It's just doing a different route. Please don't lie to her, you won't be helping her accept that failure is ok

@WoolieLiberal

Surely where the 11+ still exists it’s no longer mandatory? Why on earth would you subject your daughter to it if you think she won’t pass?

Lying isn’t the solution. What if, for example, her best friend ends up passing the 11+ and says she’s going to the grammar and DD2 then decides it’s really where she wants to go?

You have to tell her you lied to her and she didn’t pass.

That would destroy both her confidence and her trust in you.

Only one of her friends is doing the test. It's not something typically done in her current school.

It's not that I think she won't pass but I think she's probably borderline so could go either way.

I can see there's been some chat about tutoring, which is really a separate topic but just to say, she hasn't been tutored but I am doing some bits with her so she's prepared for the style of questions in the 11+, which are quite specific and different to what they do in school.

I do think that in general children need to learn to fail, and given the support to cope with that. The caveat to that is that all children/families/children are different and there may be some exceptions.

My sister and I were at a tiny but outstanding private school. my sister was always cleverer and more academic than me. I passed the 11+ and went to grammar school, as expected. A couple of years later the LEA (I think) changed the criteria as they felt that an unfair proportion of private school children were taking up grammar places. So instead of the top 20% of the county getting a grammar place, you had to be in the top 20% of your school. There were only 7 or 8 pupils in each year on average at our school so that year only one from my sister's year got a place and it wasn't her. Another pupil pipped her by one mark. My mum was braced for this because the new criteria had been publicised and was very controversial so my parents were ready to appeal. They told my sister that she had passed "provisionally" but that there were some follow up tests this year. I think as part of the appeal process she had to sit 3 or 4 more 11+ papers (with others) and she was then granted a grammar school place.

My mum didn't tell her until she was an adult. She was a very anxious and emotional child and my mum didn't think she would cope, and would panic during the appeals process. I was much more stoical and resilient and I reckon my parents would have told me if it had happened the other way around.

You know your daughter best OP.

@Mabelann

You don’t pass or fail the 11+ though do you. You get a score and depending on how your ranked against the other applicants that year you may or may not get a place. It’s perfectly possible that in one year a score would result in a place and in another year an identical score would just miss a place.

Tell her she performed really well in the 11 + but unfortunately there were more super bright candidates than normal who scored better - just bad luck.

Otherwise surely she’ll be pissed off with you for not sending her to the grammar if that’s her preference.

Yes, true. You don't pass or fail, you get a score, but there is an automatic qualifying score for the grammar school so it's a pass/fail for getting in.

Sorry I am reading through all the replies! Thank you for taking the time to reply.

@Ilovemaisie

Charming. Poor girl. My mum was "never forgiven" for failing the 11+ . Although that was the 1950s and the Secondary Moderns then were very basic (leave at 15 with no exam taken). However I believe if she was in school these days it would be very different. In her youth she made clothes from scratch and can knit without even having to look at the needles. In recent years she joined a social group and ended up on the organising committee (something that wouldn't have existed in her school days). If she was at school today she could be studying GCSE textiles and/or fashion design. She could be on a student council and organising events. A completely different type of education. Are the local Secondary Moderns/Comprehensive schools really that bad? What do they actually offer. They might suit your daughter more.

Yes they are really that bad and not an option. I'd remove her from school altogether before I'd let her go there.

@nanbread

If you think it's wrong for a 10 year old to feel like they've failed, why on earth would you make her do a test like this in the first place?

To get into a good school. I wish it wasn't necessary but it is.

Private is only an option as a safety net and would cripple us financially.

@Druidlookingidiot you’re entitled to your view of course. But I felt strongly that my DDs’ well-being throughout their secondary school years was my primary concern. My eldest didn’t need tutoring to pass (with an exceptionally high score), and tutoring wouldn’t have helped my youngest — even if it could potentially have helped her to pass the 11+ it wouldn’t have been good for her to have been artificially deemed suitable for that level of academic pressure.

However as I said, this is a discussion for another day as I don’t want to derail the OP’s thread.

@Secretroses

If I was the older sister, I might feel resentful that my parents had chosen to send my younger sister to a private school for no good reason. It would feel like favouritism.

Older child was actually offered a scholarship to private and turned it down so that's ok.

[quote Ninkanink]@Druidlookingidiot you’re entitled to your view of course. But I felt strongly that my DDs’ well-being throughout their secondary school years was my primary concern. My eldest didn’t need tutoring to pass (with an exceptionally high score), and tutoring wouldn’t have helped my youngest — even if it could potentially have helped her to pass the 11+ it wouldn’t have been good for her to have been artificially deemed suitable for that level of academic pressure.

However as I said, this is a discussion for another day as I don’t want to derail the OP’s thread.[/quote]
It's not a view. The 11+ does not test what it purports to test. You can't test a child at age 11 and make future predictions.

By lieing to your younger daughter you are taken away your older daughters achievements. Different children will be good at different things.

Whilst your coming from a good place I don’t think lying about this is a good for your daughter

@bourbonne

Also, think about what you'd be telling her about other children. She would take the message that she is "cleverer than" all the children in her class who haven't passed. Some of whom might still be pretty bright kids. Why give her an unwarranted superiority complex? It won't help her in life.

The other kids in her class won't be sitting it (except one). Also, I don't think she's the type to get a superiority complex. She's a sweet kid.

(By the way, I recognise that most people think IABU and I'm hearing that and absorbing your comments, but responding to specifics as the thread got away fro me before I could check it!)

What would you do if she majorly digs her heels in and says she's earned her place in the grammar school, that's where she's desperate to go?

You say the teachers won't know.

We get told the results.

The results go to the primary school as well though, so its going to cause all sorts of confusion if a teacher hears her talking about having passed if she hasn't. You can't ask the teachers to lie too.

Don't lie. Don't forget that the private school may want to know the results and it could potentially come out that way (for eg, if there is a 'grammar' level stream). It may also be a talking point amongst the kids who may/not have done the test.
FWIW we are in same position and I have decided not to put my not-especially- academic Yr 5 in for the test for same reasons. Listening in to her sibling's Yr7 grammar school lessons over last few months has also made me realise that it's not only about passing the test but also being comfortably able to keep up with some very very smart kids. I think that being in the bottom set at a grammar must be very hard.

You have the excuse of the pandemic to emphasise that you think that this is the right decision, given the last year. In Kent, it's not even clear if the Kent Test will be happening, or when, or how. Finally, you can spare yourself a summer of doing non-verbal reasoning papers which is a massive bonus!

Ok - setting aside the entrance exams and the price tag for a moment, which school do you feel would be best for your younger daughter?

If you’re not certain she’ll pass for the grammar, but then she does pass - would she just spend the next five years struggling against her brighter peers? What kind of effect would that have on her self esteem if she is already a bit sensitive?

I would let her try for the grammar but be honest about her results and as a previous poster said, say it’s just a way of deciding which school will suit her best.

@Pinkflipflop85

You say the teachers won't know.

We get told the results.

Not at the school she's at. At the risk of being lambasted for being 'wealthy' again (so far from the truth, and a very complicated and outing backstory to how we afford any private education), she's at a private primary. They don't do 11+ and don't receive results. I know this for certain.

Hi OP, I could have written your post.

Have you thought of flipping this into making it their choice of which school would be more suitable for them as an individual, remove any whiff of it being a competition between siblings, then sell them on the indy.

We took younger DC to look at the grammar on open day and nitpicked things I knew they wouldn't like, asked the eldest DC about their mountain of homework in earshot, and went to a few indys and really bigged them up for the better facilities, smaller class sizes, creative arts, huge range of music, drama and sports which made school life much more rounded and fun, a place interested in finding what they want to do in life rather than seeing them as a set of exam results, better trips, easy going friendly nothing-to-prove vibe. When the time came, DC decided not to bother with 11+ at all because they preferred the indy. sneaky but job done. Both DC thriving in the schools that suit them best.

@YesPleaseMary

Ok - setting aside the entrance exams and the price tag for a moment, which school do you feel would be best for your younger daughter?

If you’re not certain she’ll pass for the grammar, but then she does pass - would she just spend the next five years struggling against her brighter peers? What kind of effect would that have on her self esteem if she is already a bit sensitive?

I would let her try for the grammar but be honest about her results and as a previous poster said, say it’s just a way of deciding which school will suit her best.

Honestly the grammar. I think she's a bright, capable girl. I just know it's' hugely competitive to get in. But if she could get in I think she'd be happiest there.

The private is excellent but maybe a bit full on for her? I think the grammar would be more 'normal' and also because we cant really afford private (wouldn't be paying for it ourselves, mostly - complicated) we would be (and currently are) different to the other families, which takes a toll in other ways.

We did tours of both and both loved the grammar best.

Thank you for your lovely post.

@overthecorona

Don't lie. Don't forget that the private school may want to know the results and it could potentially come out that way (for eg, if there is a 'grammar' level stream). It may also be a talking point amongst the kids who may/not have done the test. FWIW we are in same position and I have decided not to put my not-especially- academic Yr 5 in for the test for same reasons. Listening in to her sibling's Yr7 grammar school lessons over last few months has also made me realise that it's not only about passing the test but also being comfortably able to keep up with some very very smart kids. I think that being in the bottom set at a grammar must be very hard. You have the excuse of the pandemic to emphasise that you think that this is the right decision, given the last year. In Kent, it's not even clear if the Kent Test will be happening, or when, or how. Finally, you can spare yourself a summer of doing non-verbal reasoning papers which is a massive bonus!

I hadn't considered that the private may ask for 11+ score, thank you. That's another factor to consider.

It's tough isn't it? I don't think she'll be at the very bottom of a grammar school but I agree it's rough on the kids that are. I think she's quite bright and over-tutored kids often end up being bottom, whereas she might get in but have more natural ability? That's kind of my gut instinct.

@Nith

What would you do if she majorly digs her heels in and says she's earned her place in the grammar school, that's where she's desperate to go?

She definitely won't. I know a few posters have said this but just from knowing her, she's very sweet and 'biddable' for want of a better word. She'll trust us to send her to the best place.

Also to answer another question that keeps popping up, I'm not worried about her getting into the private school, that's a certainty.

ah sorry, just saw update that you'd all prefer the grammar. go for it, lots of preparation and they'll be fine. mine could have squeezed in but we just felt it wasn't quite right so steered another way. good luck.

What is it about the other local schools that are so terrible? What are you basing it on? League tables? Ofsted?
There are several schools near me that 'on paper' are considered the best schools. Good exam results etc. Good Ofsted.
But often the last Ofsted was a decade ago so a whole cohort has been and gone. Some will only allow pupils that are likely to get a good grade at a subject to take it for GCSE. Some are (allegedly) good at off rolling certain pupils (ie 'encouraging' them to seek a different post 14+ education).
The behaviour of some of the pupils on public transport coming to and from school is appalling. They have to have staff members stationed at the bus stops to help with control. Local shops do not allow the pupils in during the school run times.
A local McDonalds had to fully ban teens from several of these so called good schools for a while and then employ a security guard.
The language many sixth formers use when out in public is absolutely revolting.
But as far as league tables etc go these are 'highly sought after over subscribed schools'.