To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

Don’t tutor her to pass it either. I really don’t agree with that, when the child might not then be able to reach and sustain the standard of academic excellence required in order to do well and feel good about yourself in a grammar school......

(But that’s a discussion for another day!)

I’ve always believed in honesty and not what you say, instead how you say it.

To think it is unspeakablento do it would be entirely beyond the pale. It's dishonest and manipulative insofar as both your dd's are concerned. Neither will ever trust you again.

Do not lie but please turn down the temperature.

Reward any effort she puts into studying.

Do not reward results for a test.

My DC passed but I did not tell actual marks, was so surprised that so many people tell you their marks and go on and on about it.

My DC knows also not to go on about it and that it is an unfair system and you can perform well on the day but it does not really mean anything apart from a way of getting some people into schools which have too much demand.

What I would do is talk up the state or other options now.

We did not do much tutoring but everyone seems to do it and some friends have had some level of tuition since year 3 so I actually think the kids that do zero tutoring are now disadvantaged... which I know is not fair!

I wouldn't lie - as others have said, if she really wants to go to the grammar school she might view it as you having blocked her from attending. However, and perhaps grammar schools are different from in my area, but it isn't a case of passing or failing - you are put on a list according to your score. So theoretically your DD2 could get a higher score than DD1 but not get a place as there were others who scored higher. Dealing with disappointment in life is a key skill - if you can find a way to handle it sensitively then that would be far better in my view than lying to her to save feelings in the short term.

The problem is the fact that she is 11

Compounded by a clever sibling - trust me that’s not fun

It’s really NOT the same as dealing with GCSEs ... at 11 you’re still very much a young child

11+ is a ridiculous construct anyway - OP just don’t make her sit it if she’s going to fail.

Anyone that finds out you lied about this in real life will think you're deranged.

It's not doing her any favours to deprive her of the chance to deal with normal disappointments and limits.

it is important she knows if she's failed & that you don't think any less of her for it.

My brother is much less academic than I am & our parents never made it an issue.

If she ever had to prove a qualification she didn't have she'd risk losing her job / university place etc

She may well work it out.
If she rocks up on day 1 of private school and says "I passes the 11 plus, there are bound to be girls who say I didn't that's why my parents sent me here!
I would tell her the truth.

If you believe in your heart of hearts that she won't pass the exam, then don't make her sit it.
Explain to her that the private school would be the better option for her so you're going to try to send her there instead.
She may or may not work it out, but at least she won't feel she falls short of her sister for the rest of her life

DD1 goes to a super-selective state grammar and DD2 goes to a non-selective state school. DD1 passed the 11+ well and DD2 had a go but didn't pass. Both had tutoring but DD2 was always going to find it harder, having mild dyslexia and generally not as academic as DD1. The tutoring really helped with her general schoolwork though and made her much more confident in her abilities.

Both schools are really good schools and suit the girls in their own way. Whatever you do as a parent children are individuals and very different from one another.

We just didn't make passing the 11+ a big deal. In DD2's year hardly any of her friends passed either or didn't go in for it at all- it seemed much more difficult than when DD1 did it. So she didn't mind not passing, she knew what school she was going to anyway and liked it. If she had passed we would have had to think about a grammar and whether it would be in fact the best school for her.

No, I definitely would not lie about this. The way I’d do it, is to make her feel good about herself as she is. Not all children are academic. That’s fine. We all have different skills. Also we have to learn to live with disappointment and not passing every test or exam. I have one academically able child and one not. But each has strengths and special qualities.
Lies come back to bite you on the bum. I’m fine with little harmless ones, but I think this is a biggie and actually unfair to her. You’re sort of reinforcing the idea that not passing is something to be ashamed of.
But that is just my take. 11+ is horrid. I wouldn’t blame you at all for fibbing.

I can see the temptation, but for all the reasons listed here, it’s actually taking the cowards way out. If you spend time in the months before the exams emphasising the messages that people are good at different things, grammar schools only look at one thing, all talents are valuable etc she won’t be hit too hard. My brother failed the 11+ completely unexpectedly, I was the academic older sister at grammar, he went to a private school and absolutely thrived, thank god he did as he turned out to have an artistic gift no one knew about that our family weren’t in a position to nurture and would probably have gone unnoticed in a grammar school. He still went to Oxbridge and is now working as a professional in his artistic area. He got much better dedicated support and attention than I did at a grammar. He was disappointed at the time but I certainly don’t think it hung over him for more than a few weeks. And if your daughter is particularly anxious, it’s not being a good parent to shelter her from life’s difficulties, she needs to learn to build resilience while you’re still around to help her.

Don't lie to your child - ever
Do explain things in a kind a appropriate way

Don't lie to her. If you don't think she can pass, or feel that you wouldn't want her going to the grammar even if she did pass, then do not put her in for the test at all. Talk to her about how you feel she will thrive much more if she isn't in her big sister's shadow, and you think she would be happier at a different school that wasn't such a hot-house. You value her for her individual talents and personality and love her and will support her whatever she ends up doing in life, and she doesn't have to compete with her big sister or achieve the same things that she does.

I failed the exams for the hyper-selective school for brainboxes that my big sister went to, and I went to a perfectly decent school that didn't have such scary entrance criteria. I was fine, I didn't get emotionally damaged by the failure, but no one ever lied to me about it and I think I would have hated being the younger sister at the brainbox school.

I get that failing the 11+ where it still takes place does leave an indelible mental print on any person. Think of the number of times a successful business person or indeed in any other field will mention that they failed the 11+ if they did.

However, you should never lie to a child about this. Just think about the plan B as it were and how you would advise your child if it does happen.

@Ifailed

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

FFS. Life must be hard work if you get this irate every time you see someone driving a nicer car, living in a bigger house, wearing better clothes, eating at fancier restaurants... Some people are better off than others: get over it.

(And fwiw, no I'm not wealthy or a high earner.)

@zippityzip

Does she even have to take it? If your mind is made up to send her to private school why don't you just not bother?

Sorry I'm slow to reply, I didn't expect so many responses!

I would send her to grammar school if she got in. Private is a back up option and I really hope I don't have to use it as it's so expensive.

@Ninkanink

Don’t tutor her to pass it either. I really don’t agree with that, when the child might not then be able to reach and sustain the standard of academic excellence required in order to do well and feel good about yourself in a grammar school......

(But that’s a discussion for another day!)

There's zero reason not to tutor as the 11+ is a completely flawed way of testing the so called academic excellence required.

A decent test should be valid and reliable. The 11+ is neither. It doesn't test future ability so it's not valid. If by tutoring your can improve the result, then the test is not reliable.

On the basis that it's a flawed test, then tutoring seems a perfectly sensible way to proceed. Many other parents will get tutoring for their child, so by doing the same you are being fair to the child.

I haven't read all the replies yet but just to say she would definitely accept our decision if we said she'd passed but we were sending her private. It's not a passionate desire to go to grammar, she just wants to. She's also very sweet and cheerful. On top of that, the private is a great school and she'd have a very good education there so unlikely to end up resentful.

@bourbonne

WTAF. She'll instead be resentful about how her parents forced her to go to the private school when she wanted to take up "her place" at the grammar.

Also, her teachers will know. Are you going to ask them to go along with the lie?

Also... It's good to learn resilience and putting things in perspective. The 11+ is not a pass/fail exam - it gives you a score on very specific skills, and the grammar schools take those with the highest scores. It's absolutely fine not to be one of those people. It will happen throughout life that you don't make the cut for something. Protest against the system if you like, don't embed it into her heart.

To reply to this - her teachers won't know.

I take your point about resilience though. I just kind of think it's a bit rough at such a young age and hate the school system so don't see why she should have to be knocked by it.

To even contemplate doing this to her I really find alarming,& to what end? could be your ego possibly,but it could seriously backfirs, if you do go through with it,shame on her lying parents,because that is What you will be,absolute lying parents.

You’re not unreasonable to consider it but ultimately I wouldn’t lie as she may resent you for it and if needed go to private school with an attitude of I shouldn’t be here. It may also cause her to be complacent - some people (adults included) need to work harder at this kind of thing but are generally better at other aspects of life. I would talk to her about the benefits of both in advance so she feels informed and involved in the decision making and if she doesn’t pass soften it to you just missed out and play up the strengths of private school. I think lying for her own good/protection sounds good but she’s so young it sets a dangerous precedent. She will still be figuring out what she is gifted in, and if that’s not academics but artistic talent or compassion then she will still succeed.

You don’t pass or fail the 11+ though do you. You get a score and depending on how your ranked against the other applicants that year you may or may not get a place. It’s perfectly possible that in one year a score would result in a place and in another year an identical score would just miss a place.

Tell her she performed really well in the 11 + but unfortunately there were more super bright candidates than normal who scored better - just bad luck.

Otherwise surely she’ll be pissed off with you for not sending her to the grammar if that’s her preference.