To tell my daughter she's passed 11+ even if she doesn't?

[Incogweeto]

DD2 will take 11+ in September. She's a lovely, funny, bright child, but not as academic as DD1 who got an extremely high 11+ score and is at grammar school.

Our options here are grammar or private. State is absolutely awful (this isn't a comment on all state schools at all, just the ones we have access to which are in the failing category). I would never send her to our state options.

I've already told her that she'll sit 11+ and private school entrance tests and then we as parents will decide which one is best for her needs, and that grammar school isn't right for everyone. She really wants to go to grammar.

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

I think she may well pass, but if not I just don't think a 10 year old needs to be feeling that they've 'failed' at this stage. Or that they are less capable than their older sibling, which I know will hurt. DD is a really lovely, kind and caring child and in many ways more well rounded than her super academic sister. She's also sensitive and a worrier and it's the kind of thing that will affect her self esteem for years. I'd tell her she passed by a few points (not make up some super high score). She'll definitely get into the private school, no question, and be happy there.

You would be better placed putting the effort in to getting her to pass the 11+, whether that is the tutoring, mock test etc.

Don’t lie.
Just make her aware of the possibility of not getting a high enough grade to get into the grammar school and let her know that there are other good options

You are in a very fortunate position because you can afford private education.

Issues I can see are:

1. Her deciding that she really wants the grammar-then you become the mean people who aren't letting her go. Clearly you love her sister more because you let her go.

1. Her finding out at a later date. She might just go "oh, well" or she might start thinking about all the other times when you'd said she'd done well at something-did you lie about that too? You can think she won't find out, but she may well. These things do sometimes come out through unexpected passages, or it may become obvious to her as she goes up the school. If she asks you directly in three years time "I didn't pass did I?" would you really say "of course you did darling"?

1. Her sister. I'm sure she does some things better than her sister. You probably celebrate when she achieves them. Is that not going to be hurtful for her sister that you'll lie to preserve the younger one's feelings but not her's? I was in the position that if I achieved something my younger brother was unlikely to it was always hushed up, but I was expected to hear and celebrate all about his. It's hurtful and also says your feelings don't matter as much as theirs.

Also, what if her sister then says that she feels the private would be better for her too? She could feel hurt that you're happy to spend £10k a year on her sister, but not on her.

What I would do is:

1. Speak to her sister, if she's cooperative in such things, say that you're not sure she'll pass, and also that you're not certain it will be the right school for her. Ask her not to make too much of it whatever the outcome is, and not to say things like "you're going to love doing X at my school".
2. Talk to her about it not being guaranteed pass. Say it varies per year so if she's in a good year then she might not get in. That takes away from being directly competitive with her sister.
3. Talk equally about both schools. A has a great sports' pitch, B has a wonderful theatre. Do not talk down the grammar. She won't be fooled, but the older one may well feel she's been sent to a school you think is inferior.
4. If she doesn't pass, tell her quietly away from others. Let her feel upset. Then start looking at the other school with "when you're there you can..." type comments. Make it her school to own.

You are leaving yourself open to problems later if she objects to the private or her sister feels hurt that she isn’t at private ...

I had to address a similar issue this year - DS2 knows he didn’t pass but not the score - he did much worse than expected and he doesn’t need that information or dent to his self esteem. He wants to know , is strong willed and has asked a few times . It is not easy fobbing him off . In normal times we probably would have been honest , but my son has been badly effected by the pandemic and we think he’d crumble. The fact that he’s in the state he is is pretty good evidence he would have struggled at Grammar ! Perhaps you should consider your daughter not taking the test if you are worried about her resilience. Also do not assume she will pass the private tests - I have friends who did this and ended up without a place

Tutoring does not always work. A family member was coached by the most sought after local tutor, who tested prospective students before agreeing to coach them. The tutor accepted her but she still didnt pass even with the best support. I did some prep with her and even I can say she just did not have the necessary ability in maths.

I’m a firm believer that all lies are bad, even little ‘white’ ones.

Let her sit it if that’s what she wants but if she’s more keen to go to grammar school and you don’t send her there it could do more emotional harm to your relationship with her than the emotional harm of “failing” the 11+. I think as some PPs have suggested you need to reframe the “fail” as the pass mark is higher this year or that the private school doesn’t ask her to prove her worthiness to be there because they see that children have other talents that can’t be measure by exams etc. Try and find a positive spin on it rather than outright lying to her.

As a teacher and as a mother I cannot believe that you would consider this. It would be absolute damaging to your future relationship and her mental health if she ever found out. I was lied to constantly as a child, small white lies as they say, never really big ones and I can honestly say it has left a permanent mark on me. I would never do this to any child.

I would be having open and frank conversations with my daughter about what she wants versus what she will happen if she doesn’t pass and let her decide on the best course of action. It should be her choice and you cannot ask her to prepare and sit the 11+, ask her to put in all that worth and effort and then lie to her about the results. I have a very sensitive child that worries about everything and we have had some hard times and choices as a family and do you know what he is all the better for facing life head on and developing resilience. You cannot shield them from things that may not go their way. You can however give them a choice if they want to do something and be supportive and proud of what they do achieve.

**She might well pass with coaching, I have invigilated at 11+ exams and seen kids who have been trained like thoroughbreds, some even turning up in full school uniform on a Saturday morning so they are in the right mind set. I often wondered what happened if it was a particularly strong year and the cut off mark for places as opposed to the “pass”mark was very high so even the fast runners didn’t get offered places. What a blow that must be, “You passed, but not well enough, and the GS doesn’t want you.”

Not to mention the ones who did get in on a less strong year but then floundered along finding themselves struggling and wondering why they were always in the lower streams even though they tried so hard**

@viques

What you’re saying is so true. So much rides on it that if they ‘fail’, it’s literally akin to the end of the world, for both child and parents.

It shouldn’t be that pressured. It’s not healthy and as you say, it’s 5 years of potentially struggling to keep up. But that’s what happens when so much emphasis and money is thrown at this one exam. 🙄

Something similar happened to me. I was put forward for 11+ in 80s, told I’d failed, I wasn’t fussed as it meant I was going to the same school with my friends. I did well there and have a lot of degrees now, good job. Don’t know if / how I’d have coped with hothouse grammar anyway. What was unexpected was my Dad, who had dementia and got very indiscreet in his later years, telling me when in I was in my 40s that I’d actually passed the 11+, but my Mum decided to keep me at the comp so I could attend the same school and look out for my less academic slightly younger sister. She’s done ok too btw. I understand why she did what she did, and don’t worry about what iffery now.

I wouldn’t lie, that’s ridiculous. I failed mine. At our school kids that failed were put into either middle or bottom band and the kids that passed were in top band. I did different GCSE papers to the kids that passed and the highest grade I could get in those papers was a C. We were the first year to do GCSE’s so not sure if its changed. I know my daughter is doing foundation papers and my son is doing the higher ones? Wouldn’t she know in that case?

@Ifailed

Bully for you for being wealthy enough to pay for the lie, all the kids from normal homes can just suck up being labelled thick.

People who fail the 11+ are not thick, whatever their background. These are the sorts of comments that make people lie in the first place.

OP - do not lie. You say she will never find out the truth. You'd be amazed what truths come out. And nor can you spend your life shielding her from the truths of the world. The critical thing here is that she understand that no exam or failure means that a person is a failure, just that on that occasion, in that place, they were not the best, but also not the worst. Life will serve her up failures. If not this one, others. Your job is to teach her how to manage those failures, and that they do not refelect on the person she is.

Pleased do not lie to your child, she will eventually find out and then your relationship maybe damaged forever.
Kids need to learn resilience and bounce back from adverse situation, They need to learn how to deal with disappointment because you know as an adult that is life . If you shield her from negative stuff now, she will never be able to deal with the bigger stuff when she gets older .

YABU

I think lying to your child about the exam is a pretty awful idea!

I failed mine by a couple of marks, I knew the outcome straight away, I owned this failure & it didn't scar me for life

I went to the local state comprehensive and did better in my GCSEs & A-levels than many of my friends/peers at the local grammars and private schools 🤩

In fact, I was glad I went to my school, I learned to work hard & independently, didn't have things spoon-fed to me for exams & university applications

Friends who went to the other 'better' schools often struggled with the pressure & hot housing to get the exam results the school needed for its reputation

Eating disorders, mental health issues & bullying was rife...I appreciate this could apply equally at a state school but there was another level of pressure going on in these schools

NO!!! We've just been through the 11+ with my year 6. I told her that she will be rewarded for the effort to prepare for the 11+ but the test is only designed to check what type of learning suits you best.

Children who are happy with academic learning suit grammar and children who like more variety/ creative suit a more imaginative type school.

She passed well but I meant every word I don't her.

I meant every word I told her!

If she doesn't pass 11+ I'm planning on telling her she did and that we just decided to send her to the private school. Is that terrible? It will obviously involve maintaining the lie, potentially even when she's an adult if it ever comes up. There's no way she'll find out.

Tbh I think it’s an exceptionally bad idea. You said she really wants to go to the grammar school so how are you actually going to explain deciding against it? What if she’s truly crushed at your ‘taking away’ an option that she thinks she’s legitimately earnt? What if she pleads with you to let her go anyway? You might at some point then feel it necessary to tell the truth and then you’ll have to tell her straight out that you lied to her face. Then she won’t be able to believe you when you say it’s not actually a big deal not to have passed (which it really isn’t), because in her mind I expect she’ll translate it as ‘mum and dad were so disappointed in me that I ‘failed’ that they tried to pretend I didn’t).

My youngest was in your daughter’s shoes (with a very academic, gifted elder sister who can do literally anything she sets her mind to), and she didn’t pass the 11+ which she found disappointing, of course, but she got over it and hasn’t ever mentioned it again beyond the few weeks afterward. I told her truthfully that I had entered her because I wanted to afford her the same opportunity that her sister had, but it was not in any way the be all and end all, and that if it didn’t happen that was perfectly fine too. I have always worked very hard to convey to both my daughters that I am equally proud of each of them and that their respective strengths are worth celebrating and there are various types of intelligence and different ways to succeed in life.

I taught my children resilience by letting them learn to cope well with success and ‘failure’ as well as setbacks and disappointments. They’ve both had difficult periods where I could have rushed in to try to rescue them but instead I supported them in dealing with them.

And crucially, it wouldn’t have been the right school for my younger daughter at all as she’s very intelligent but gets extremely stressed over exams and doesn’t at all thrive under pressure. The pressure would have been way too much for her.

I'm surprised children are told their scores. In my day, we were only given an acceptance letter from the school. I don't think there was any chance of getting in with a score of below 95/100 anyway, so who cares whether a child got 96 or 99?

Don’t lie! If she doesn’t get in then come clean with her. It’s how you deal with the “failure” that matters. We will all fail at some things in our life; you won’t always be able to protect her from that but you can teach her how to move on with a positive frame of mind and build resilience.

My Daughter sat the 11+ when she was 11, she did not get into grammar school as TBH the families that had the money paid for their kids to be tutored a year before the exam which is something that we simply couldnt afford at the time. She was absolutely gutted and cried A LOT. felt like crap and it really shook her confidence as a person.
fast forwards 4 years and we moved to Scotland where there are no grammar schools anyway, she has just sat English, Maths, Art, Modern studies and History a year early and achieved A's in all of them. She sits the rest of her nat 5's this year and has already begun sixth form highers (A levels) for the subjects that she has already passed.
she has succeeded without the grammar school.

Wouldn't it be more helpful in the long run to teach her that failing a school exam doesn't make her a failure? X

Don’t lie to her, OP. Pay for the tuition, tell her it doesn’t matter if she passes or not, because you want to be sure that she will be happy at secondary school, and if she fails, the chances are that she wouldn’t. Then wait for the result. If she fails, or even if she just scrapes it, make sure that she knows that it is simply because the Grammar School wouldn’t suit her learning style that you are choosing the Private school instead.
My DD was told this, and some years later thanked me for not making going to Grammar School such a be-all and end-all, as many of her friends who got into the GS were under so much pressure by the time they got to gcse’s, that many of them suffered awfully with Bulimia Etc.
Above all, don’t let your oldest think they are “cleverer” - they just have a different learning style!

I wouldn’t put her forward for it if she’s not academic. Even if she passed sounds like she would be bottom of the pile at a grammar academic speaking ?? If that might be the case think carefully as it will do her confidence no good if she finds it a struggle.

Maybe private would be better for her regardless.

I certainly wouldn’t lie to her. Especially if she prefers the grammar, she will always be cross at you for not sending her there.

What if she is horrendously bullied at the private school and always resents you for 'not letting' her go the grammar school? If you are so worried about her failing, why put her through the exam in the first place?

@zoemum2006

NO!!! We've just been through the 11+ with my year 6. I told her that she will be rewarded for the effort to prepare for the 11+ but the test is only designed to check what type of learning suits you best.

Children who are happy with academic learning suit grammar and children who like more variety/ creative suit a more imaginative type school.

She passed well but I meant every word I don't her.

I think that’s a perfect way of explaining it.

I think the situation is even tougher with her sister at the grammar school if you lie. How do you justify that you think the private is better than grammar? What if the older sibling questioned why they sent her there if parents think the school isn't good enough and private is better?