Where would the money come from to give all NHS staff a 12.5% pay rise?

[katieloves]

I cannot begin to think where cuts would be made to fund this when the economy already is in the state it’s in. How would you fund it?

@Morgoth

Why does nobody ask where all the money is coming from when it’s billions for Tory mates contracts, billions for vanity projects like bridges or high speed rail, billions for failed track and trace, billions for dodgy contracts or corruption, or millions to spend on settling court cases to protect Tory MP’s or billions to spend on Brexit preparations or stupid useless commemorative coins?

Why doesn’t anyone ever ask where the money is coming from then?

This.

Time and again. I'm aghast at normal proples willingness to excuse or ignore the unfair elitist policies of the current government. As previous posters have said, there is PLENTY of money, its just controlled by a tiny proportion of the population. An effective and fair tax system would solve this. But people don't vote for it.

And a previous poster also reminded me of when the tories found 1 billion dollars out of thin air to give to the DUP to join a coalition with them. And that was way before the pandemic. I had completely forgot about that. They can always find it when it’s for things they want or to pander to voters they need.

It’s a deliberate choice not to fund health and education, not an economic one. It’s been shown by almost all economists that not investing in public sectors even in times when GDP is low is a bad idea. Some posters have even given excellent links to read in this thread. Increasing public sector wages also helps the private sector immensely because a) it will make the private sector more competitive and pay will increase and b) more disposable money is spent from peoples pockets creating a wealth flow.

They can print it, can't they? I mean, that's how these things work now afaik. It's not like when I were a lass and you got a chit from the USA and gold was worth loads etc. State money is a different concept from how it was even twenty years ago due to this. I know they keep on saying "we need to balance the books" but we don't need to do anything of the sort and haven't had to for some time.

So, yeah, just print it and give them a pay rise.

I work for the NHS (not a nurse or doctor - I work in microbiology so instead we've had to cope with setting up and performing 1000s of samples daily of a test for a virus we barely knew of a year ago).

I've worked throughout the pandemic, as has pretty much everyone in my department (apart from the CEV). I've watched a lot of my colleagues catch Covid (I've had it too), some have been extremely ill, and a lot of us have ongoing symptoms.

The 12.5% increase is a red herring, no-one actually expects that, it's a negotiating tool. But on the other hand it's a challenging environment and we need to be able to offer staff something to stay.

The problem is that we were already having a lot of trouble recruiting experienced staff, and more now are leaving than are starting with us. We're losing 3 more experienced staff this month, two of whom are going to private companies. Those of us who are left are increasingly left with staff who are training, as well as having to do our own work.

I've said this before, the thing that people should be aware of is that the government has set up a situation where private health companies are set up as rivals to the NHS and can offer a better deal. This will not help, there are plenty of unfilled vacancies - maybe the people saying they want a secure job would like to re-train (it takes around 6 years from the start of the biomedical science degree) and work here, there will be plenty of jobs.

I'm not worried that staff will strike for a couple of days, I'm worried that they'll leave forever and we won't be able to replace them.

@MrsTerryPratchett

And governments should work together to do it so they can't hide in tax havens.

Sick and tired of 'there are no resources' when there fucking are. Empty luxury homes and people on the streets.

Fuck them.

yep, agreed. The money is there - it's being hoarded by the super rich. Anyone who doesn't understand this is ignorant.

Yet people will vote in Tory in the council and main general elections every single time. My council has been solid Tory for 100+ years and the next popular party is UKIP so no chance of this changing ever.

People also forget that out of any extra money the nurses and other NHS staff get, 20% will come back in tax, 12% in NI, and for any staff that get UC, the amount of any extra net pay will be offset by 63% in reduced UC.

Simply giving the headline figure only tells part of the story.

I do think that the actual offer will be higher, as anything compared to 1% seems good, and it will mean people are pleased with a fairly low %.

They budgeted 2.1%, so where’d 1% come from?

[quote echt]It's called Modern Monetary Theory. A long read, but well-expressed:

actuaries.asn.au/Library/FSF10_Paper_Frank%20Ashe.pdf

Here's wiki:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Monetary_Theory

The government can print all the money it likes, and that is what it's been doing with furlough.

This clashes with its persistent narrative of running down/deriding the public sector and its espousal of austerity, a purely idoaloigical. not financial move.

Try this:

www.taxresearch.org.uk/Blog/2017/07/21/we-can-afford-all-the-public-services-we-need-its-only-our-economic-model-that-prevents-it/[/quote]
This is the crux of the matter. There is no direct link between tax income (to the government) and public expenditure.

A long read on the topic is here moslereconomics.com/wp-content/powerpoints/7DIF.pdf

1% is insulting
(The failure to even think about carers and school staff also dreadful. the fact that private companies have not increased pay for key workers such as in transport and shops.)

For the NHS it might be difficult and probably expensive to break down NHS workers to decide certain groups should be paid extra or more deserving.

Just referring to nurses would cut out health care assistants. Taking out allied roles will include physios and dieticians helping people recover from Covid.
Reducing to those who worked on Covid wards ignores staff who caught Covid on wards that were supposed to be safe and those who helped treat and comfort patients with other illnesses like cancer who had no visitors.

Although most clerical staff were at home some were on wards. Some in hospital but away from wards would have been a support to the clinical staff emotionally.

Then there are the porters, cleaners, mortuary workers keeping the whole thing running. For some of these staff it is more complex as they are under private contract.

And although people love to hate management imagine trying to manage an NHS trust through Covid. Managers are higher paid and any increase could be on a sliding scale. I would have really struggled working out logistics. I’d be pretty sure there was management at the end of their tether as the government was not sourcing PPE and staff were dying (some maybe colleagues if they were senior and moved to management.) These managers were deciding ward management, what services have to close, knowing how it was affecting lives

I’m in NHS management. I had to train consultants and nurses in moral harm - eg how to decide who gets treatment and who doesn’t (not just Covid patients - all patients if all of our beds were full and we had to turn others away). It’s the same training given to the military who may harm civilians in the process of their work.

We’re a fairly small trust. I’ll never forget the sight of colleagues i respect and want to enable to undertake their caring vocation (it’s not just a job) sobbing at the prospect of having to make such horrendous choices.

Just as an indirect example of the impact Covid had on non-frontline staff.

That’s aside from trying to keep them safe, staffing numbers up, staff testing, WFH, schools closing and child care issues, a vaccination programme that landed from the sky etc etc.

I think the best things regarding NHS might be a one off bonus for all staff, including contracted out with companies having to show it was actually paid.

Then ongoing pay the government should follow pay review bodies and that could address staff shortages and retention. That is where some of the balance of public finances and long term planning and link to social care is vital.
Would I be prepared to pay extra tax for that - yes. Every government says they will cut tax evasion. I do think that locally and internationally tax on companies trading online needs to be reviewed.

Maybe if they cut the employer pension contributions they would have money to increase the pay because that is extremely high

THe problem I have with this is that all the talk about "the NHS" conflates the amazing staff who have worked all hours in COVID wards or who have stepped up and taken on work which they had never expected to do - eg nurses going back to the front line from a specialism, and ambulance service staff who deserve everything we can throw at them, with the likes of the idle GPs in my local practice who have used COVID as an excuse to do even less than usual. I'd like to see a larger percentage rise - perhaps 5 -7%? going to the real NHS heros rather than a blanket sum going to all regardless of whether they have done anything or not.

@Londonmummy66

THe problem I have with this is that all the talk about "the NHS" conflates the amazing staff who have worked all hours in COVID wards or who have stepped up and taken on work which they had never expected to do - eg nurses going back to the front line from a specialism, and ambulance service staff who deserve everything we can throw at them, with the likes of the idle GPs in my local practice who have used COVID as an excuse to do even less than usual. I'd like to see a larger percentage rise - perhaps 5 -7%? going to the real NHS heros rather than a blanket sum going to all regardless of whether they have done anything or not.

GPs aren’t on Agenda for Change pay scales. So easy to keep them separate.

If the general public took some personal responsibility for themselves and made better lifestyle choices demand would drop freeing up more money for wages.

Smoking,drugs, alcohol and weight (all these also have a massive tie in with mental health). cost the NHS millions each year.

Trim the Royal Family right back to the bare minimum! the millions of pounds going into the rest of them would help a bloody lot! Poor nurses, doctors, care workers etc

There is always money to be found when needed. We are a rich country. We just need to sell or cut something, it is about priorities.

A 3% pay rise would cost less than 2bio (12.5% is silly), so sell RBS (20bio), cut back even a bit of HS2, a year of a one off bonus tax (been done before), tax on turnover of big tech, rise in CGT etc etc.

It is ludicrous and insulting to pretend a few billion is more than loose change in a 2 trillion economy.

Nice for all those in the private sector who are now jobless seeing nhs getting 12% when the're on jobseekers

As previous posters have said, there is PLENTY of money, its just controlled by a tiny proportion of the population. An effective and fair tax system would solve this. But people don't vote for it
Yeah, tax the really rich and see how long it takes them to move to Monaco . No one's going to hand all their money over in tax

Why are we a rich country - we're not imv.
Oils run out, can't use coal, made money in financial services but they're at rock bottom due to covid and might move to Europe post Brexit- we manufacture sod all so there's nothing to sell to other countries, our unis make some money from foreign students, but lecturers demand more money, our farmers are squeezed by the environmentalists, banning herbicides etc. We are covering the hills with wind farms, turbines built in China, installed by Danish etc companies, we make some cars for Japanese companies - we demand foreign food imports, sorry to inform you but we are poor and getting poorer.
We do make money from fashion design, musicians other skills, but then the musicians move to US. Football yes some money there ( mostly from gamblers - poor sods). But tell me where all our money is being made cod I see b all.

@Maxellious

I don't disagree that some NHS staff should be paid more (eg front line staff, not the senior management). But I do have a problem with the ideology of "they deserve a pay rise because they did the job they were trained to do during an event that they should have been trained for". A meaningful bonus for past year, sure but otherwise, why weren't firemen given a pay rise after Grenfell? Or policemen the next time there is significant unrest?

Plus, lots of NHS staff haven't been touched by the pandemic. In my family: an NHS dietician who has WFH the whole time doing phone consultations and giving training via Teams and an admin staff rearranging surgery appointments from home, they have both said that (for them personally) that the past year has been the most relaxed workwise they have had for years. Neither feel like they deserveanyy special recognition for being NHS and are a bit embarrassed by the whole NHS hero's thing: they feel like frauds when it's put on them.

We need a better system to reward and protect those who have been on the pandemic front line.

The problem is in the NHS is that they seem to lump everyone in together, I get paid the same rate working as a receptionist on a busy (red) Covid ward/palliative ward as I did when I was back office, making appointments, and yet there is a world of difference. Through the pandemic I would dread going to work, I would arrive at 8.30 and be spinning around until 7.30. I would feel like I had only just arrived at work, and yet 11 hours had past, and half of the ward had died and been replaced in that time. It really affected me mentally.