Where would the money come from to give all NHS staff a 12.5% pay rise?

[katieloves]

I cannot begin to think where cuts would be made to fund this when the economy already is in the state it’s in. How would you fund it?

@Cam77 I agree, I think some of it is about aspiration. So people aspire to higher salaries, are against higher taxes for inheritance or 2nd properties because they think at some point it will affect them.

@Spudina

From the £350 million pounds a week we saved with Brexit. We can spend the money ear marked for track and trace, that’s an extra 15 billion. To be honest as a HCP I don’t want 12%. I just want but to be facing a real terms pay cut AGAIN whilst the MPs award themselves a generous pay rise.

The MPs aren't getting a pay rise.

"Tax corporations" is just a slightly less dull alternative to "tax the rich", it's the kind of thing said by people have no clue and just want a magic wand waved to solve all the worlds problems.

Having said that, there have been moves in the last couple of years to reform international agreements on corporation tax, so that profits are taxed where the corporation is legally based but (for example) on where the customers are. That would be a game-changer that should render tax havens obsolete for many big companies.

I still wouldn't get to excited though, currently Corporation Tax brings in 6% of the governments money, I doubt raiding the tax haven revenues of Amazon and Apple would make as much difference as people like to assume.

I don't know why people say cut Trident as if that would be a good thing. Due to our low manning levels it's all that keeps us in NATO, and the sad reality is that we need a deterrent.

I think 1% is an insult, but 12.5%, come on! Could they not do a decent one off bonus for NHS staff instead? It's something to show appreciation without the long term costs of a huge pay rise.

I do think they should get a pay rise, but not 12.5%.

@Gobbledene

I don't know why people say cut Trident as if that would be a good thing. Due to our low manning levels it's all that keeps us in NATO, and the sad reality is that we need a deterrent.

If people like the 'household' spending analogy, (which is debatable), then the UK would be seen as household that has fuck all money, that's borrowed loads, that has decided to get out of a trading club that helps is trade easier and spends a lot of its money on a really expensive home security system that if used, would kill the attacker and lead to its own house being destroyed as well.

Cutting Downing Street decorating budget would be a start followed by Prince Andrew's allowance.

Surely test & trace has been allocated lots more money because of the increased testing that's happening?

I just ordered some home tests that were sent to me (kids at school so we're doing home LF testing) That test postage has to be paid for.

I'm not sure if anyone has made this point already, but chucking a random billion as a one-off COVID expenditiure costs us 33 million a year for 30 years, assuming we borrow to fund it. It makes no sense to borrow to fund an expense that's going to recur every year, so chucking an extra billion at NHS salaries is a bill of a billion a year every year forever.

Or, to put it another way, if you want to compare what's being spent on track and trace with a salary increase, you need to divide the first number by 30 to make them roughly comparable. 37 billion becomes 1.3 billion. Divide that by 1.3 million NHS workers and you get £1000 each. Which I guess might be 3%, for lower-paid workers?

I misread Google, apparently 1.3 million workers is just for England. Doubt it makes much difference to the overall calculation though.

I’m in favour of refunding the NHS but if I was the chancellor/health secretary I’d prioritise restaffing rather than pay rises. A lot of people are going to need new jobs over the next year or two and there are serious staff shortages in hospitals, schools, police, inland revenue and social services. It’s not as eye catching as a big pay rise but hiring/training/paying people to fill the gaps would keep the economy moving in a productive way and make work easier for existing staff. If I was prepared to spend 12.5% of the wage bill I’d spend at least 10% on new staff not old ones, and offset a lot of the cost against universal credit that those people would otherwise be paid.

The question is how possible it is. Regardless of the posters who always say that they’re terrible underpaid jobs so nobody’s going to want to move to them there certainly is an increase in people looking to train for the public sector at the moment as it’s seen as a safer financial bet. But Brexit must be causing a numbers problem, especially in the NHS. And the Tory party are ideologically opposed. You note that the ballerina in the widely mocked advert was going to retrain as a coder, not a medical technician/midwife/cop/PE teacher. That’s not an accident.

I wonder how much influence private healthcare providers - the huge Chinese companies like Circle and BMI - have had. Increases to NHS pay would pressure them to increase pay rates too (or risk losing staff that are already difficult to recruit). They are a growing market because of outsourcing and a very powerful lobby.

Agreed not much difference but I thought the concern is companies not paying sufficient taxes not it’s employees?

Employees dont get dividends. Only owners of a company or those with shares in get dividends and you can only issue dividends from company profit after it is taxed at 19%. You are then taxed again as an individual when you receive the dividends - which is banded.

I get the distinction when its comes to companies like BA, Amazon, etc. Anyone too large to fail or multinational. But I think we forget 99% of all UK companies are SME with under 250 employees. In these circumstances the 'company' is not that much separate to the employee. If the company is taxed 19% - 25% on any money it doesnt reinvest/spend by the end of the year then essentially they are being taxed for acting responsibly by saving earnings to retain for future years (for hiring more people, or increasing peoples pay).

I think Corp tax encourages irresponsible business finances, unethical hiring practices (zero hours, low hour contracts) and stiffles growth of micro and small businesses or any business who cares about having enough money in the bank to pay their employees.

@RandomLondoner -companies are already generally taxed in the uk if they carry on substantial activities here. There’s a whole slew of tax law too to prevent profit shifting to lower tax jurisdictions and there has been for years. It’s easy to say “tax Amazon” because you have come to some sort of misconception that Amazon is not taxed for some strange reason, but of course it is.

Free hospital parking for NHS staff would be a start. Should be free for everyone, but to have to pay to park at work takes the absolute piss.

Why don't they just print some more?

@MeadowHay

Where the money was coming from was said every time improvements to education were suggested.

So if 1% costs around £200m per year, let's assume £800m to fund a 5% increase.

The first year could easily be funded by a windfall levy on those such as Serco who have profited from Covid 19.
The second year could be funded by delaying or reducing the scope of HS2.
The third year by increasing fuel duty on fuel in line with rail fare increases.
The fourth year by recruiting all government jobs outside the NHS on 5% below the current pay levels, and in return allowing wfh for half the time for all non-front line workers, and saving on property costs.

It is under 1% of government expenditure, so by the fifth year standard normal efficiency measures could fund the rest.

Or we could cancel Trident replacement and stop pretending we are other than a second level or third level world power.

12.5 % ?
Is this the latest suggestion? A minute ago there was a headline of 1%.

I can't agree to that. I know NHS have worked very hard in covid. But 12.5%? Ridiculous. I can't agree to that. 3%,5%,7%? Ok. But this much? No. There isn't the money for it either.

Is there a legal mechanism for the billions given to Track and Trace to be made to be laid back? The amount wasted is astronomical. Where is it?

@Oblomov21

12.5 % ? Is this the latest suggestion? A minute ago there was a headline of 1%.

I can't agree to that. I know NHS have worked very hard in covid. But 12.5%? Ridiculous. I can't agree to that. 3%,5%,7%? Ok. But this much? No. There isn't the money for it either.

12.5% is what the unions have submitted to the pay review body.

They've just given HMRC a 13% over 3 year pay rise. Maybe HMRC are just more worthy than frontline nhs workers 🤔 (this is sarcasm)

[quote CayrolBaaaskin]@RandomLondoner -companies are already generally taxed in the uk if they carry on substantial activities here. There’s a whole slew of tax law too to prevent profit shifting to lower tax jurisdictions and there has been for years. It’s easy to say “tax Amazon” because you have come to some sort of misconception that Amazon is not taxed for some strange reason, but of course it is.[/quote]
They pay a far lower % on their turnover than a one person ltd company - they negotiate what they pay with HMRC. SMEs don’t get to do that.

@Sometimes123 well said!

Activity creates money. Take HS2 for example. The £100bn+ is not being piled up and incinerated. Money will flow to construction companies and will further flow to contractors and suppliers. Householders and businesses will relocate and that will put money in the hands of other occupations such as estate agents, solicitors and builders. It is the same with any activity or event including Covid. Each one is different because it will affect different sectors in different ways.

Policies are designed to flow money into particular directions, or to particular persons. HS2 was a concept designed and delivered by the Labour government.

What Covid has taught us is that we cannot just have a great medical and scientific research resource. We must have a great health resource so that we can deliver those scientific benefits. The success of the NHS is measured in its front line staff and their ability to work as valued professionals in a well motivated team.

Cancelling HS2 and reinvesting more money into our healthcare system and creating services to export overseas is an easy win.