To expect some consideration from my living at home 21 year old son?

[OMGhelp]

I am bloody fuming and sitting here tight lipped with anger not daring to speak to anybody, in case they get it instaed of my DS1.
We (DH and I) are at present car less, to be remedied in the next few days. We sold our old one yesterday and had an agreement with our 21 year old son, who lives at home, that we could use his car to do the school run for DS2 aged 10. As DS1 is a chef his work would not be interfered with by the arrangment. This morning I took DS2 to school, I had wound the drivers window down and it wouldn't go back up, when I got back DS1 and myself tried to get it up manually but it shattered, scattering glass all over the car. I mentioned that he has windscreen coverage on his insurance and whilst he was sorting that out I hoovered his car to get rid of the glass, DH agreed to cover the excess of £60. Then he went to work.
When he came back, I asked him for the car keys at school pick up time and he said I couldn't have them as the windscreen bloke was due somewhere between 2.30 and 530pm. He then went on to say that I should walk to get DS2. I had 5 minutes to walk 2.6 miles. DH volunteered to come with me although he has Rhumatoid Arthritis and has only just started walking again after his recent steroid treatment.
We walked down, the school was very understanding and we found DS2 cuddling a guinee pig. On the way back, DS1 turned up and we thought he had had a stab of guilt and was coming to rescue us. Ohh No, the first words out of his mouth before we had even done up the seat belts was,'You forgot to leave the Money'.
The real question is, do we now give hime 2 months notice to get out of the house or not. This is not the only example of selfishness, inconsiderate behaviour, arrogance etc. I have wanted him out of the house since he was 16 years old as I don't really get on with him, but have always been over ruled by DH. But even DH is fuming.

I think you are right Ivykaty, and I have now cooled down enough to see it rationally.

But I still think it is time for him to move on, for his own good. He needs to get on the property ladder, find a girlfriend/boyfriend, and be close enough to work so that he can have a social life.
As to him having enough money to go on holidays to hong Kong instead of saving for a house deposit, we have been asking him to put some money aside each week since he started working full time, to that end. He has had 5 years to save for a deposit and he hasn't done it. You can't force a person to do anything without threats ( have not done that). The only nice way is by persuading them that it is a good idea themselves, and he has not thought of it as a good idea, he would rather spend money on computer parts.

Could you afford to pay his deposit for him and then have him pay you back?

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Thank you Pitchounette, I was really staring to think I was the only one who had ever felt this way, but I knew that statistically there MUST be other mums out there who who have the same feeling but are probably too worried about the reaction to come forward. As for me I had written the little bit about not liking my son, in a really bad fuming temper, and pressed return without thinking to take it out, so even I didn't really want to bring it up. But it has actually helped, and I hope it has opened a few eyes out there as well.
Most people can be good Mums, it takes a great Mum to bring up a child when you don't actually like him.

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I think this is a really sad post ..... sad for all the reasons Pennies and Hekate mentioned in their posts of 19.33 & 20.03 respectively. I'm lucky enough to like and love my 17 year old son most of the time (though at other times I could murder him) but can also imagine how distressing it must be, as a parent, if you feel genuine dislike for your own child. Presumably, OMG has had to struggle with overwhelming feelings of guilt for several years (yes, she "made him what he is", do you really think she hasn't done one hell of a lot of soul searching ?) - but she isn't irresponsible, nor uncaring, about the situation or else she wouldn't have mentioned seeking counselling.

Disliking your child isn't unknown ..... I am sure I have seen threads here in the past about that very subject. I have also read magazine articles about the same thing. It must be devastating for all concerned - and there is no easy answer I'm sure. I actually think OMG was very brave to say what she did.

I do also understand some of the very negative responses she's had though ..... because "mother" is such a very emotive notion, conjuring up connotations of unconditional love (OMG does state she loves her son), nurturing, self-sacrifice and so on. Consequently, the instinctive reaction to any aberration from that "norm" is usually shock, horror and outrage that a mother isn't being the way she "should" be. But I don't actually believe that OMG is uncaring ......

.... where I think this thread has gone wrong is OMG describing the car-fiasco incident - the straw which seems to have broken the camel's back - and then also being brutally truthful by admitting she has struggled with her feelings for her son for a long time. This is my take on the whole thing ....... I think many readers have been outraged by the juxtoposition of these 2 separate issues in the 1 thread. In the overall scheme of things, quite obviously the car-thing is relatively trivial compared to the mother-son relationship. Consequently people have been, like "How can you get so worked up over the car thing when there's a much more serious issue going on here ?"

And I personally think therefore that OMG has had a very hard ride.

I bet if she had posted 2 separate threads, the responses would have been rather different:

1. My thoughtless adult son is taking the mick and treats my house like a hotel (a recurring MN theme)
2. I love my son but I don't like him. I feel crap about that, is it possible to ever sort this out ?

Okay ..... maybe OMG could have worded some of what she said differently but I know how easy it is to type without thinking how it might come across, particularly when you're angry and/or upset. Subsequent to her earlier posts, she has specified how upsetting she finds the situation, how she'd like it to be "normal" and so on. She's not a monster. I don't agree she's "toxic" ..... has she ever deliberately tried to harm her son physically or emotionally (I don't get that impression)?

OMG ....... I hope I haven't said anything out of turn. I have no idea how you resolve these issues going forward. So far as a lazy adult "child" is concerned, I am all for setting a fair rent (and/or chores in lieu of part rent), setting deadlines for leaving if these terms are unacceptable to said adult "child", helping adult "child" with taking 1st steps to independence (financially if possible, practically, eg. bits of furniture etc. or helping to find houses shares etc). If an adult "child" is working there's no earthly reason why they shouldn't shape up or ship out. I'd say that to anyone .... you do adult "kids" no favours by letting them sponge indefinitely, and while they're living at far less than market rent they should damn well respect and help take care of the household they live in.

The larger issue ..... I'm totally not qualified to know what to suggest. Has your son ever brought up the fact he's aware of the emotional distance between you ?? As others have said, you may well find that once you do live apart, your relationship will start to improve and you can both find a comfortable place in each others' lives ..... I hope so.

If you think for one second he doesn't know the full extent of your disdain for him, you are wrong.

You are, as you know, fully within your rights to throw him out of your house whenever you please, but if you are kind you will lie to to him as you are to yourself, and tell him it's because of the car.

Don't let on the real reason, that his very presence makes you feel guilty for not loving him as much as you love your other children.

How could you contemplate sending your own child to boarding school just because you don't like them? It's one of the most self centred things I have ever heard!

The other children will know they are the favoured ones which is also a horrible position to be in, almost no better than being the family scapegoat.

Catsmother the problem here is that OMGhelp described the unreasonable way she reacts to her son which is obviously because of the fact that she doesn't like him (and excuse me for thinking that someone who loves their son wouldn't regret not being able to send him to boarding school at eight because they didn't have enough money - that's not love).

OMG could start by realising that it is her responses to him that are unreasonable. Until she does that she won't be a good mother to him, let alone a great one.

great post, catsmother

OMGhelp, can you see your son moving out as a positive step - a fresh start for your son and you, and a way for you to discover you love him.

I feel really sad for you if you see it as an end to the mother/son relationship, not as a new beginning.

I also know how immature I was at 21 - in some ways. Even if I had been in the position of earnig a good wage (which I wasn't) I would have felt so abandoned if my parents had wanted me out of their home.

Elizabeth, please take the blinkers off, I do know that my responses to my son are un-reasonable, (I have said so repeatedly in this post, and I have also repeatedly said that I regret it) which is why I haven't said anything to him yet, as I know I will need to calm down before I can make a reasoned response. My DH knows all about this and has been our willing umpire in many a clash. But will you stop thinking of DS1 as being a child, he no longer is. The damage is done and bitterly regretted, but it hasn't made him into a bad person, even if it makes you think of me as a bad person.

What was I going to do when he was 8 and I had this terrible affliction, 1994, I was terrified I would lose both my kids if anybody found out that I wasn't normal. So I kept it quiet, you would have locked me up wouldn't you? and left him and his sister in the hands of the unfeeling care system. As it is I buried my feelings as deep as I could, and gave him the cuddles and kisses he needed, (which when you think of it I needn't have done) I congratulated him when he read his first book all the way through, (he was rewarded with a visit to the cinema), I made him special birthday cakes, and kicked leaves with him in the woods.I held his hand as he went into theatre at the age of 19, and all of the other mumsy things.
Why does my admittance of disliking him as a person make me a bad, evil, mother. I could have been a peadophile and sold him by the hour to my male friends, and I bet they would have been treated the same on here. But they are peadophiles, I am a mum who has put her own feelings on the back burner to give her child the best upbringing I could and you revile me for it.
There is an old Bible saying about an eye, a chip of wood and a log.

I am hoping that when he does move out it will be a good case of absense make the heart feel fonder. We do have days where there is real affection. But they are rare and subsequently cherised even more.
I can't help him with the house deposit, as we are on benefits. Disability etc.

OMG, I'm responding to this that you said at the beginning of the thread:

"I don't know why, I have just done my duty by him since he was 8. I was seriously contemplating putting him in boarding school at that time. I was hoping he would move out when he was 16 and he hasn't obliged yet. There are some people in this life you just don't get on with, and he is one of mine."

That was before you got a lot of criticism and started backtracking. You didn't think you had been unreasonable but called everybody who said you were "judgemental harpies". And I can't help noticing that one minute you're calling disliking your son a "great affliction" but before you were saying putting up with him made you a "great mother".

But actually I don't want to make you feel bad or think you need locking up, I just think you need to understand that your hostility towards your son is your problem, and isn't anything to do with him. If I was taking a wild guess it's either because he reminds you of something in yourself that you dislike or he reminds you of someone in your past who you are angry with (anger that you haven't been able to express or are maybe even aware of so it's been taken out on your son). I hope the two of you can have a better relationship in future, maybe him moving out will help towards that.

i've only read the op but from what you wrote in it you made it sound like he sorted out when the windscreen repair person was coming before he went to work so why didn't he tell you then that you couldn't have the car?

Nappy , exactly. He didn't, he also didn't phone us to tell us the details etc. When I asked for the keys at the usual pick up time, he turned around and said no you can't have them the windscreenman may come. You can walk. In that tone.

Elizabeth, have you actually read the viciousness in the posts against me. Some of the worst were by you. And have you actually read my posts, I know its my problem, it hasn't sorted itself out in 15 years it may sort itself out in the next 15. The initial posts were written in a temper, the subsequent posts were either written in tears, a blazing fury or very defensivly.
Only some of the posts were supportive, and I thought MNers were supposed to be supportive. I have lived with this problem and overcome it over the last 15 years, and you lot come in and make your great pronouncments that I am shit when you don't know that much about me.
I was quite relieved when I found MN as I thought I could have some proper 'girlfriend' type interaction to help me, and hopefully that I may help somebody else. But after this I darn't even contact my local MNer's group because I won't get the support or friendship I could expect, I will be villified before I can say hi. (Pssst. isn't she the one who admitted she doesn't like her kids, No! actually I heard she chopped her firstborn up and fed him to the pigs).
The arguments against me havn't been reasoned or thought out. Most of the replies show that my replies havn't even been read. I have had a nights sleep and I KNOW I did the best I could, and it was a bloody good job. I do not posses a time machine to go back and repair the damage, so I am not going to stand here in sack cloth and ashes wailing 'Im Sorry, Im Sorry', just so that you can point and say 'at least Im not as bad as her'. I may be defensive, but quite honestly some of you could never be as GOOD as me.

TOPIC CLOSED as I am not going to defend myself any more. I have to get DH out of bed and washed dressed etc. for the day. After yesterday he has had a relapse. Also get DS2 to school if DS1 will let me have the keys. etc etc.

I think your DH has prob hit it on the head about you and your DS being too alike. I had a difficult relationship with my Dad growing up. He reckons I was fabulous till i was about 5 - when I was 5 my sister arrived and I started to have a mind of my own. We clashed regularly. My mum used to say that part of it was that we were both too alike. I couldn't see it. But now I see and hear myself reacting to things just like my Dad does and I have to wryly admit she is right.

I feel very sorry for you all that you feel this way and I admire you for admitting something that is anathema to most mothers. However I do think that you over-reacted to the car situation. He is only 21. I know you say he is an adult but most 21 yr olds are still not mature. I know I certainly wasn't. Maybe he was annoyed that you broke the window. Doesn't make it right that he retaliated by not letting you know that you couldn't have the car but - he is only 21. And human. And you seem to rub each other up the wrong way.

I do think that 21 is too young to have to think about mortgages etc. Yes lots of 21 year olds do but I think they shouldn't necessarily have to.

Do you think if you tried to just change your way of thinking (no easy I know!) from not liking him to that issue that you are alike and rub each other up the wrong way, it may change how you feel?

I think pushing him to move out before he is ready and for the reason that you don't like him will not benefit him or you. You feel guilty already. I would imagine that although initially you might feel relief I think that ultimately you will feel more guilt and you will resent him more for those feelings. Which after all are not his fault.

Good luck.

I think whether we like or don't like our children we do need to alter our relationships with them as they get into early adulthood as three of mine are. It involves a lot of adjustment and rearrangement to the parental position. You still have more experience and knowledge than they do but they are also adult, can vote, marry, own property etc. I try to find things I can do with them that they enjoy and I enjoy. I look for common ground - my 19 year old now emails me every day on some or other political issue, videos on youtube or whatever - we found something we could discuss and the girls have other things they can talk to me about. It doesn't mean we would go out as good friends and it would be like a nice dinner out with best friends as they have different views and outlooks from mine and are at a different life stage but even so we found some areas of commonality. It's easier when they go away to university as you then get that logical separation and they return a bit changed, more adult - a natural break point.

I have not not liked any of my children but I am sure there are parents who don't. I have not liked a lot of awful teenage behaviour which is mostly caused by hormones but I could separate that from the child.

I think him moving out is a great idea but along the lines I discussed - a fun project you can all work on together, get him and you painting walls in his new place together, take him out to choose some cheap bits of furniture even if just at second hand shops. Use it as a way to build a few bonds. Make his realise how valued he is - I find my older ones invaluable over their help with the younger ones at times and I hope they know that.

Sorry OMGhelp. But I think you are being a bit unreasonable. Yes he was being selfish but a lot of young men are. You say you have never let how negative your feelings are towards him, but he probably does know as kids pick up on these things. When he was 8 you said he was arrogant,mean and selfish, a lot of children are at this age and they need love and encouragement not a mother who wants them to leave home at 16. Anyway I think 16 is much to young to live on their own.
And Yes I do love all my children unreservedly. DD2 17 is often very lazy and selfish but I still love her and all hugh I nag her to tidy up,I also encourage and praise her for her good points.

I am noticing in all your posts that the words I, I, I, me, me, me crop up a lot. More tht would be thought normal when you are actually talking about someone else.

You are ranting on about "I've done this, I've done that, I felt really bad, I wated to do this that and the other"

What about how he feels? What about what he wanted? What about whatevr the Hell he did to deserve your 'affliction' being visited upon him.

I can understand not liking someone you are supposed to love ... what I cannot understand is a complete denial that it has affected anyone but yourself.

You say you put your feelings on the back burner to be a good mum.. what do you want, a medal? So you should have done!

I am desperately sad for you that you cannot look past your feelings to see the longreaching consequences of your actions, but I am even more desperately sad for your son who has been living a rather cold existance for 13 years.

You are concernd about your son's selfishness? Read into your own posts. I I I mememe. You cannot expect him to have the same regard for your other children as you do, he's not their parent!

You expect the highest of regard from him because you feel you have 'sacraficed' your happiness in order to mask your feelings for him - but I'm afraid you have done nothing out of the ordinary, no matter how martyred it makes you feel. Other mothers do it to, and they do it without turning into a seething and furious ball of resentment towards a relatively innocent party.

When i was growing up i had a couple of close friends who were sisters. Their mother pretty much stoped caring for them when they were 10 and 12. These two poor girls lived in the same house as their single mother who didn't work and had everything payed for her (benefites etc). Those girls pretty much brought themselves up from the ages 10 and 12 never having cooked meals made for them except one time their mother made a big pot of stew and left it on the stove for them to eat for a few days. She never went food shopping and would give them a little bit of money to buy themselves food which would usually consisted of a pot noodle and toast.

Their mother never washed their clothes, never cleaned the house, never did anything for them. She would drink alot and smoked heavily and had many boyfriends. I grew up watching what those poor girls went through, they had a tough upbringing and never had any motherly love.

I find the reactions from some people on this thread awful. The op has said she doesn't like her son so she could have gone one of two ways;

1. She could have done what my friends mother did above and left him to drag himself up or;

2. She could have looked after him, put a roof over his head, fed him, clothed him and let him live in her house until the age of 21 with him paying a lousy £50 and not lifting a finger.

I am not defending the fact that she doesn't like her son but what i am saying is she could have done a lot worse. I know of mothers who have kicked their kids out at 16 and have seen those kids turn to crime and drugs etc.

Fact is he is 21 and should not be paying £50 per week and treating the house like a hotel. It sounds to me like he needs a taster of reality.

All throughout this thread peopel ahve said there are times when they are angered with their children and feel that although they love them very much they do not like their behaviour.

That AFAIK is normal, the difference is the OP is saying she has felt that way for fifteen years not, on occasions when he has been a twunt (which everyone is at times) but for the whole of his life past eight.

OP, you broke his car and think he owes it to you to make sure you have transport to pick up your other child, even though you sold your own

You also said he came to pick you up after all, but as he mentioned the money for the window you broke, it means that he wasn't being caring and considerate, but money grabbing.

Also, FWIW, DP would be very unlikely to consider school pick up times when arranging anything, as it is not part of his day to day routine, so I wouldn't expect your 21yo DS to either.

There is a great difference between being disappointed at the way your son ahs turned out when he is a grown maan and deciding at eight years old that you don't like him, then acting as if everything that you have felt since makes you a victim, I hope to God that you haven't damaged your sons mental health by allowing him to grow up in an environment where he knows he isn't liked.

OMG im in

I havent read all of the posts by you but the few i have have made me

"I have just done my duty by him since he was 8. I was seriously contemplating putting him in boarding school at that time" what a horrible thing to say about your ds

"I was hoping he would move out when he was 16 and he hasn't obliged yet!"

"I did my duty and gave him love, when he needed it" i give my dc unconditional love, all of the time! not just when they need it!

"He just rubbed me up the wrong way as soon as he started getting a mind of his own, and he has had that that same attitude from about 6 years old." our dc are supposed to be individual with minds of their own!

Your poor ds and now matter how much you have tried to hide your dislike to him he will have been affected by it! you selfish old witch, its not your ds fault you feel like this so STOP blaming him! you should have realised this a delt with it years ago (councilling or whatever) instead of blaming an 8 yr old boy!

And to your OP, you admit that he rubs you up the wrong way and irritates you, if he was waiting for his windscreen to be fixed then thats not his fault either! and maybe he didnt tell you sooner because your such a cow to get along with! YA(most definately)BU

this had made me so and