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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Is so hard to address a woman as ‘Ms’?!

423 replies

skwish · 02/03/2021 18:33

I’m married, but have kept my maiden name. Eldest DC has ex-P’s surname, younger ones have DH’s. Recently moved to country from big city (south of England do not exactly the Moon). DCs’ primary school staff INSIST on either calling me Mrs DH or Miss Skwish (having taken some time to stop addressing me as Mrs Ex-P). Despite many reminders, they just will not address me as Ms Skwish, which as a grown woman in her 40s, I expect to have used as default. Now seem to gravitate towards Miss Skwish which I find infantilising and offensive, as well as inaccurate.

Quietly fume every time this happens, and have now been tipped over the edge by DC1’s new secondary school, who have just addressed me as Mrs Ex-P in a reply to an email, from me , despite me signing as Firstname Skwish.

Is Ms just a city thing? Have I gone into some weird time warp? Surely Ms is normal and polite and default everywhere? AIBU?

OP posts:
LucilleTheVampireBat · 03/03/2021 13:29

I know it isn't a popular opinion on here (although it did used to be...) but I can't understand why more people don't find it infuriating that it is only women who must have a title that informs perfect strangers if they are married or not.

If you are one of the "proud to be a Mrs" people then how does your husband tell strangers that he is proud to be married? His title will be Mr from birth to death. Nobody will ever know of his pride in having secured himself a woman to marry.

JamesMiddletonsMarshmallows · 03/03/2021 13:32

I have always been a Ms and I'd say 95% of people get it wrong. And I do think it's mostly on purpose

LucilleTheVampireBat · 03/03/2021 13:33

Written down there is no excuse, but spoken Ms sounds really awkward

I have never understood this. It doesn't sound remotely awkward. Does saying Liz sound awkward? Fizz? No? Then you should be fine saying Ms which sounds just like Mizz. Easy.

ItsIgginningtolooklikelockdown · 03/03/2021 13:35

I still come across some school children who think Ms means divorced. (This tends to come up when they write my name on their books on the first day). I correct this, but I've had years worth of classes who don't say anything, and I wonder why exactly they thought I needed to announce I was divorced the first time we met! (Maybe I hoped they had an eligible dad at home, who knows??)
Fewer young teachers use Ms in my own experience. HmmConfused

Newkitchen123 · 03/03/2021 13:37

@99victoria

I used to run a gym and whenever we signed up a new female member I never asked for their title, I simply recorded them as Ms as we recorded all men as Mr. It seems simple to me. Why not just one title for women and one for men. Why should we have to 'advertise' our marital status?
Because that's your point of view. So you are assuming others don't mind. You are assuming their opinion is the same as yours. I couldn't get worked up about it but I chose to become a Mrs so therefore the title in your system would be wrong. Because you didn't ask.
Oceanbliss · 03/03/2021 13:45

I agree with the general consensus that women shouldn’t be identified or valued or judged by their marital status. Whether you are married or not isn’t relevant to most situations.

SOSGB · 03/03/2021 13:55

@LucilleTheVampireBat

Written down there is no excuse, but spoken Ms sounds really awkward

I have never understood this. It doesn't sound remotely awkward. Does saying Liz sound awkward? Fizz? No? Then you should be fine saying Ms which sounds just like Mizz. Easy.

I think most people pronounce it 'Mzz' not 'Mizz'.

it is more awkward to pronounce with the vowel. With the vowel it just sounds like 'Miss' with a speech impediment.

Either way, it is better than Miss/Mrs for a grown-up woman not the property of her parents or husband.

SOSGB · 03/03/2021 13:56

"more awkward to pronounce withOUT the vowel..."

daysdaze · 03/03/2021 14:01

It's only awkward to say because we're not in the habit of doing so.

I agree that for me, it doesn't sound like Miss with a Z, it's more Mz

playbadlycast · 03/03/2021 14:12

I’m with you OP. I have always thought of Ms as the default pronoun for a woman - as then having knowledge of her marital status doesn’t come into the exchange. All the women teachers in the children’s rural school are ‘Ms.’ Anything else would sound very old fashioned to my ears.

RainingBatsAndFrogs · 03/03/2021 14:14

Written down there is no excuse, but spoken Ms sounds really awkward

People have no difficulty with the Ms sound in other contexts. Dreams, bombs, arms, limbs...all have an 'ms' sound.

Schoolkids are very used to addressing teachers as Ms with no fuss or awkwardness.

Beamur · 03/03/2021 14:23

I am married but avoid using Mrs - it irks me to signal my married status. DH doesn't have to do this, so why should I?
If I have to use a prefix, it's Ms.

crosstalk · 03/03/2021 14:23

OMG I had this argument back in the Sixties.

I married my husband not because I wanted to be proud to be married but because we loved each other. We were both professionals. We both kept our own names and I used Ms. FWIW I earnt more than he did.

At that time a woman needed a man to support her application for a mortgage. Or to apply for a loan. Infantilising women.

Another one for Frau/Fraulein. Mlle/Madame. But then the Germans also add the honorifics like Frau Doktor Ingineur

SheilaWilcox · 03/03/2021 14:46

@Brefugee

hang on to your hats all you Ms refuseniks. I order special edition stamps from the Royal Mail and you can choose Mx. Which is a completely sex and gender free term

And i use that for Royal Mail and anywhere else i can - unless the fact that I'm a woman is important for some reason. Can't think of many.

If all you ever wanted to do, or you really looked forward to changing your name and becoming Mrs (OfXXX) have at it. But don't lump us all in on that.

Someone mentioned teachers? Here in Germany (where they are obsessed with academic titles, for sure) if a teacher has a PhD you can be darned sure they're referred to as Dr. (We do differentate between Herr Doktor and Frau Doktor when addressing them or talking about them in the 3rd person though)

I’m a teacher and I don’t care if parents call me Miss, Ms or Mrs even though they know I’m a Miss, it’s really not something to get offended about!

it's not about being offended. It is about inherent sexism. And a lot of people have no truck with that. So you can be happy with "hey you" or Mrs or whatever. But if you have asked people to refer to you as "hey You" and they persist in using Miss you would be perfectly entitled to tell them to adhere to your wishes because not to do so is rude fuckery.

I quite like the idea of Mx for everyone.
RainingBatsAndFrogs · 03/03/2021 15:07

I think everyone should be 'Citizen'.

SheilaWilcox · 03/03/2021 15:44

@RainingBatsAndFrogs

I think everyone should be 'Citizen'.
Yes!

I could be Cz Wilcox in writing and Citizen Wilcox verbally.

G5000 · 03/03/2021 17:10

The recognition of marital status and promotion of strong family units

Funny how only women are expected to promote marriage and family units by declaring their marital status to car salesmen and Sky TV. Or is your DH is signing all correspondence with Best regards, Mr. X X (married)?

G5000 · 03/03/2021 17:13

Titles are in fact totally unnecessary. Plenty of countries/languages manage perfectly well without, just addressing everybody as Firstname Lastname. You don't even need to assume their gender this way.

Alaimo · 03/03/2021 17:33

@G5000

Titles are in fact totally unnecessary. Plenty of countries/languages manage perfectly well without, just addressing everybody as Firstname Lastname. You don't even need to assume their gender this way.
That has made me realise: I moved to a Northern European country last year, and in my 8 months here, not once have I been asked for, or have had to give, my title. Letters come addressed to Firstname Lastname, emails and other message simply Dear Firstname. It's quite nice.
BeakyWinder · 03/03/2021 17:54

I haven't been called miss or ms anything for years. Teachers/medical staff call me dd's mum, all other adults call me by my first name or introduce me by my full name. Children might call me lady (that one hurts Grin)

LeSquigh · 03/03/2021 18:34

I hate being addressed as Ms, I always think it’s used by older ladies that are embarrassed that they’ve not been married. I can see it’s a useful address when someone doesn’t know your marital status but really you’re Miss or Mrs aren’t you? Married or not married. I’m separated but with a DP and I use my married surname (because I like it and because my child has this name but I have reverted to Miss.

JassyRadlett · 03/03/2021 18:37

I hate being addressed as Ms, I always think it’s used by older ladies that are embarrassed that they’ve not been married.

Aren’t you glad to know that’s not the case?

I can see it’s a useful address when someone doesn’t know your marital status but really you’re Miss or Mrs aren’t you? Married or not married.

No, I’m neither Miss nor Mrs. I’m Ms. Similar to men, I do not require a title that denotes my marital status.

There are no official ‘rules’ about these titles. They are entirely a matter of (changing) convention. So there’s no ‘really’ about it.

KatharinaRosalie · 03/03/2021 18:40

really you’re Miss or Mrs aren’t you?

No I'm really Ms. Whether I'm married or not is nobody else's business.

VinylDetective · 03/03/2021 18:42

@LeSquigh

I hate being addressed as Ms, I always think it’s used by older ladies that are embarrassed that they’ve not been married. I can see it’s a useful address when someone doesn’t know your marital status but really you’re Miss or Mrs aren’t you? Married or not married. I’m separated but with a DP and I use my married surname (because I like it and because my child has this name but I have reverted to Miss.
I’ve been married twice. What am I embarrassed about?
RainingBatsAndFrogs · 03/03/2021 18:45

I always think it’s used by older ladies that are embarrassed that they’ve not been married.

Where on earth did you get such an idea? And how could you possibly think that anyone, an 'older lady' or otherwise, would be embarrassed that they are not married?

Has reading this thread enlightened you at all?

I honestly think MN needs to introduce a Stepford Wives board.