Is so hard to address a woman as ‘Ms’?!

[skwish]

I’m married, but have kept my maiden name. Eldest DC has ex-P’s surname, younger ones have DH’s. Recently moved to country from big city (south of England do not exactly the Moon). DCs’ primary school staff INSIST on either calling me Mrs DH or Miss Skwish (having taken some time to stop addressing me as Mrs Ex-P). Despite many reminders, they just will not address me as Ms Skwish, which as a grown woman in her 40s, I expect to have used as default. Now seem to gravitate towards Miss Skwish which I find infantilising and offensive, as well as inaccurate.

Quietly fume every time this happens, and have now been tipped over the edge by DC1’s new secondary school, who have just addressed me as Mrs Ex-P in a reply to an email, from me , despite me signing as Firstname Skwish.

Is Ms just a city thing? Have I gone into some weird time warp? Surely Ms is normal and polite and default everywhere? AIBU?

@Willyoujustbequiet

Ms is the default. Certainly in professional circles. It's the only one that is neutral to marital status.

To be fair it didn't use to be. Mrs was often used for all adult women. Unmarried older woman often took the title Mrs.

LemonRoses

"Children of single parents are more likely to suffer all manner of disadvantage."

Would like to see what evidence you have for this which controls for other factors such as financial hardship.

Would like to see studies showing how children living in a household where there is an abusive marriage do compared with children in a single parent household where there is not abuse. You only have to look at the relationships and divorce boards on this site to see that marriage is by no means a guarantee against abuse.

I would be prepared to bet my mortgage you're conflating the fact that households led by a married couple tend to have more money with some vague woolly sense of moral superiority you have over the fact that you're married.

Lemon, you’ve talked again about ‘the evidence’. Can you share those studies please?

Most I’ve seen (and I’ve been doing another review this morning) are very open about the massive limitations on measurement, the lack of evidence of the causative nature of marriage on the outcomes, and the very small impacts once external factors are controlled for.

You’ve also just introduced another factor in ‘consciously choosing’ single parenthood (how do you define this) and in setting this up as a binary paradigm between marriage and single parenthood - at a time when most researchers are saying ‘one of our major problems is that research methods and data collection haven’t kept pace with the many different types of family structure that exist, and so are increasingly unreliable.’

For example, many looking at cohabitation don’t differentiate between ‘stable long term cohabitation’ and ‘children where the primary parent has lived with four partners in twelve years’.

that doesn’t change the evidence that far higher proportions of children from single parent households are disadvantaged.

This is the statement that makes me think that you don’t quite get the difference between correlation and causation.

LemonRoses

"The recognition of marital status and promotion of strong family units with carefully thought out and planned pregnancy might redress the somewhat hedonistic culture of doing exactly what we want at all times, regardless of potential consequences."

You do realise, don't you, that the "hedonistic culture of doing what we want at all times, regardless of potential consequences", is not the primary cause of single parenthood?

I personally find your comment insulting. I am not a single parent by choice. Neither are any of the other single parents I know. I was married and my pregnancy was carefully planned. That didn't stop my husband being financially and emotionally abusive. I became a single parent because it was absolutely the only way to keep my daughter safe and healthy.

I am absolutely sure, however, that my daughter and I are far better off in every conceivable way for being a single parent family. Our health is better, I have far more money, we are free from the constant fear of abuse. I am happier. She is happier. Her education is a higher priority. I could go on and on.

None of this changes the fact that there is very little evidence that marriage, in and of itself and controlling for other significant factors, such as the financial benefits of marriage, guarantees a better environment for children.

And the idea that women who have very successfully raised children as single parents despite the odds being stacked against them deserve a continued taboo being attached to them through the prefix attached to their surname helps perpetuate these outdated attitudes.

I just can't see how a proper study can be done on marriage vs single parenthood. There are just too many variables.

And I say that as a child of a couple who stayed married until I was a young adult in the most miserable of marriages. There was no abuse or cheating (as far as I know), just years of witnessing and dealing with the atmosphere created by two very unhappy people.

To the outside world it was an idyllic, privileged, stable, perfect family. Living in it was anything but.

It affected my life in unexpected ways. No, I was not disadvantaged materially, or educationally, but that modelling of relationships and the emotional toll of trying to keep my parents happy, has caused problems for me and my siblings in later life. We have all had therapy at various times.

So even marriages are not equal.

I would add that my parents deliberately stayed together until we all left home because of a mistaken belief that we would be disadvantaged if they didn't. I wish they hadn't. Truly.

You see it on the relationship board all the time. Women in desperate situations saying they don't want to break up their family by leaving. It's false thinking in many cases. Children need love, stability, attention, security.
All of those things can be provided by single parents - and often better than within a dysfunctional marriage.

But sorry - off topic I know.

There is nothing wrong with Ms and it's really not that hard to use it!

@MoominFeatures

I don’t really get this discussion. If you find yourself in a situation in which you feel it is appropriate to address someone by a title, but you don’t know for sure what that title is, surely you just ask rather than running the risk of offending/niggling someone by presuming and getting it wrong?!

Seriously, though, other than in a school environment or at the bar (meaning in court, not Wetherspoons), in what scenario does this quandary even come up? I genuinely cannot remember the last time anyone attempted to address me by a title. I note a PP’s comment that they are often used a “professional” context but their use is certainly not the norm in my (very traditional) profession - practitioners address each other by name.

Agree with this! I can't actually think the last time anyone used a title when addressing me.

When at the doctors etc I get called for by my name - no title at all. Same at my work. In a professional firm.

Personally I don't want to be referred to as Ms. It doesn't bother me enough to say anything but it's not the title I would choose to use.

stuckinatrap

"I just can't see how a proper study can be done on marriage vs single parenthood. There are just too many variables."

This. Lumping a single parent family with one child and an income of over £90k into the same bracket as a single parent family of 4 children where the children are supported by benefits or a minimum wage job, for example, is meaningless. It's not a like for like comparison.

The evidence (as opposed to lobby group views) may not appease or feel palatable to single parents, but there are hurdles created for children by consciously choosing single parenthood over married family upbringings

I note that yet again you fail to address the question or supply evidence in favour of political platitudes promoting conservative "family values".

I'm married. I'm a Mrs. That's my choice. All of my married friends are Mrs. That's their choice. My divorced friends are still Mrs. That's their choice. I'm not actually sure if any of my friends use Ms.
The point is we have a choice. It's not intrusive for someone to ask is it Miss /Ms /Mrs. They're asking what your choice is.
Where there is more than one option, there will always be someone who gets offended if the wrong one is used! People are never happy!!!
The OP has children with different surnames so I can see how it's happened. However, I'm a teacher and I would imagine all systems work in a similar way, you look up the child and the parent info comes up, complete with title.
Imagine what would happen if the country decided to do away with Mrs. All the people who prefer Mrs wouldn't be happy.
While there is a choice, simply ask what the preference is. You're not asking are you married, you're asking what do you prefer to be called.

@DinosaurDiana my grandmother and my mother both did that. I’ve gone back to Miss DWP, ‘twas easiest with all my ID still in that name!

Just say "oh actually it's Ms". And correct each time. If you have to keep correcting them then you can raise a conversation about it and that should sort it.

FYI I prefer Ms, I don't belong to a husband and the 's' feels like a possessive: Mr's cat, Mr's dog, Mr's wife. Plus you don't know a man's marital status from his title like Miss/Mrs. Fuck the patriarchy! 😂

I hate it too, I'm Ms and detest Miss for an adult woman, I agree it is so infantilizing. Ms should be the default, not Miss or Mrs. I do feel alone in this where I live though.

LemonRoses
single parenthood as a socioeconomic problem

I know several posts have been made since you posted this. Sorry if I am repeating anything said in reply by pp. But the moment I read this I had to reply.

I have known far too many women and their grown up children who are scarred and traumatised from remaining in extremely abusive environments because the wife believed that they could not leave the husband because of a belief in the man being the head of the household, only allowed to divorce if the husband committed adultery, and because of being counselled to stay with the abusive husband. I think children of single parents would be much better off then these children and their mothers trapped in an abusive, terrifying household. Shaming single parents is wrong on so many levels.

Ooooo this happened to me.
I moved from London as Ms Geranium and switched to Mrs in Cornwall. I just got a it exhausted explaining everyone's relationships. I caved!

thepeopleversuswork
Thank you for everything that you wrote

@Oceanbliss

thepeopleversuswork Thank you for everything that you wrote

Thank you! It depresses me how far we still have to go to win this argument.

On written communication where they are responding to an email that clearly has my name on it, I'd expect them to use my name.

For teachers whom I don't know, and where the only connection is through my children, I'm prepared to be referred to as Mrs LordofMisrule. Honestly, they have enough to worry about.

At work, I expect to be referred to as Ms LadyOfMisrule, or Topsy. I can't remember the last time anyone used Mrs or Miss at work, other than when I worked overseas. It's always Ms here.

which as a grown woman in her 40s, I expect to have used as default

I have never heard Ms used as a default. I am Mrs but occasionally someone has asked if it’s Miss or Mrs.

YANBU to hate “miss” as a mature and married woman. It is infantilising and really should only be used on girls under age 18.

However, I am married as well and kept my maiden name and I prefer Mrs MyMaidenSurname. I think because in my mind the Mrs means married and also it’s respectful as it comes from Mistress, as in ruler of my home :). I do not like Ms at all. It seems to me to be used for unmarried mature women?

So, I would make clear your preferred title. You have every right to prefer Ms and be as annoying as you want until people note that and do it.

Oceanbliss I don’t actually disagree. Of course women shouldn’t feel they must remain in an abusive relationship. I don’t think I ever suggested anything of the sort. I merely pointed out that recognition of good marriages was necessarily a bad thing.

I don’t think it’s shaming to be cognisant of facts.

I don’t think it’s shaming to be cognisant of facts.

Which facts are they?

I would add that my parents deliberately stayed together until we all left home because of a mistaken belief that we would be disadvantaged if they didn't. I wish they hadn't. Truly.

One of the studies I looked at this morning (will try to find it) bore this out - in longitudinal studies, children’s wellbeing tended to be lower after their parents divorced but also before. So staying in a unhappy marriage is just as detrimental. (Which is to say, when controlled for other factors, not very much. But definitely not a stick to beat women with to stay in awful relationships for the ‘sake of the kids’ because ‘children do better in marriage.’)

I merely pointed out that recognition of good marriages was necessarily a bad thing.

I assume you meant to write "recognition of good marriages was not necessarily a bad thing".

Of course its not. Almost everyone recognises that a good, stable marriage is probably the optimal scenario for most people, largely for reasons of economic stability and continuity for the children. No-one has questioned that. And in fact most of the posters who are challenging you are in fact married.

What your previous posts have implied is that marriage is inherently a better environment for the raising of children and therefore its right that a premium be afforded to those people who are married in the way they are addressed (in this case their prefix).

What we're saying is that controlling for the financial advantage that marriage usually confers, there is in fact no evidence that marriage is inherently a better environment for the raising of children. And certainly that there's no moral premium which means people who are married should be prized more highly by society.

What really stuck in my craw was the suggestion that the primary cause of single parenthood is "hedonism". Which I'm sure even you know is not true.

But leaving this insulting comment aside as its not directly relevant, the point is that your argument for prizing marriage in itself doesn't hold up. What helps children thrive is a certain level of financial support, love and stability. Those are achievable outside of marriage and would be a damn sight easier to achieve outside of marriage if society didn't stack the odds in favour of marriage.

Hear fucking hear.
I honestly didn't expect, when clicking on a feminist chat thread about prefixes, to find myself castigated for my circumstances and told my children are disadvantaged because their father decided he'd rather be with someone else. As it happens our home is actually a calmer and more cheerful environment without his grumping around and constant need for silence so LemonFace (and that's how I'm picturing you, btw, sour faced bigot) DFOD and find somebody else to berate with your fabricated 'statistics'.
Regards
Ms Naughty Step