Is so hard to address a woman as ‘Ms’?!

[skwish]

I’m married, but have kept my maiden name. Eldest DC has ex-P’s surname, younger ones have DH’s. Recently moved to country from big city (south of England do not exactly the Moon). DCs’ primary school staff INSIST on either calling me Mrs DH or Miss Skwish (having taken some time to stop addressing me as Mrs Ex-P). Despite many reminders, they just will not address me as Ms Skwish, which as a grown woman in her 40s, I expect to have used as default. Now seem to gravitate towards Miss Skwish which I find infantilising and offensive, as well as inaccurate.

Quietly fume every time this happens, and have now been tipped over the edge by DC1’s new secondary school, who have just addressed me as Mrs Ex-P in a reply to an email, from me , despite me signing as Firstname Skwish.

Is Ms just a city thing? Have I gone into some weird time warp? Surely Ms is normal and polite and default everywhere? AIBU?

hang on to your hats all you Ms refuseniks. I order special edition stamps from the Royal Mail and you can choose Mx. Which is a completely sex and gender free term

And i use that for Royal Mail and anywhere else i can - unless the fact that I'm a woman is important for some reason. Can't think of many.

If all you ever wanted to do, or you really looked forward to changing your name and becoming Mrs (OfXXX) have at it. But don't lump us all in on that.

Someone mentioned teachers? Here in Germany (where they are obsessed with academic titles, for sure) if a teacher has a PhD you can be darned sure they're referred to as Dr. (We do differentate between Herr Doktor and Frau Doktor when addressing them or talking about them in the 3rd person though)

I’m a teacher and I don’t care if parents call me Miss, Ms or Mrs even though they know I’m a Miss, it’s really not something to get offended about!

it's not about being offended. It is about inherent sexism. And a lot of people have no truck with that. So you can be happy with "hey you" or Mrs or whatever. But if you have asked people to refer to you as "hey You" and they persist in using Miss you would be perfectly entitled to tell them to adhere to your wishes because not to do so is rude fuckery.

@LemonRoses My ex-husband didn't make me a single parent either; I chose to become one because he was an abusive bastard.
My kids are flourishing, with my August-born eldest having been named as one of the top 30 academically achieving boys in his 300+ year group selective secondary for the third year running.
I am proud of my single parent status considering what I've had to go through to get there.

I address my Christmas cards as 'The Jones Family'
I do that too, when a card is for the family, ie 'The Smiths'. But until recently for a couple I would send cards to Mr and Mrs A. Smith because I thought that was the correct way to address a married couple who use the man's surname, but I haven't for a while since I read (on here I think) that some people don't like it.

Oldat40 Which is why I acknowledged many are doing a reasonable job of parenting. Sadly, many are not.

@LemonRoses Exactly the same for married couples.

For the proud to be marrieds. Good for you.

But go and spend half an hour on the relationship boards and tell me it is good for women to stay with some of those abusive, unfaithful, feckless and violent men.

I am happy to live in a society where women can choose to leave abusive relationships without stigma and judgement.

I am a little sad that some other women think that is selfish and not in the best interests of their DC. In this day and age - and when many parents are well capable of forming amicable, financially secure, loving, involved co-parenting relationships - you can't lump all cases together and pronounce judgment like that.

Sometimes, people manage to stay in a long term relationship for most of their adult lives and have children without actually getting married. (How incredible!)

Children have poor outcomes for so many different reasons and I think muddling correlation and causation is a mistake and unhelpful.

You are lumping in situations with 2 functioning, amicable, involved parents with families where a parent (usually a father) has disappeared and pays no maintenance, or possibly worse, is unreliable, alcoholic and causes general chaos. Would a DC with a father like that be less disadvantaged by having that father present to make their life constantly unstable?

It all seems a little 'I'm all right, Jack' to me.

I'll answer to Miss, Mrs or Ms, I don't understand the angst. How are people who speak to the once in a blue moon supposed to remember what your preferred title is?

I get called Mrs and my kids double barrelled surname, which isn't my name but I'm not overly bothered.

I'm not even a Mrs but who cares.

Sadly, many are not

Many married/cohabiting parents do a lousy or mediocre job as well. Somehow they are not subject to the particularly patronising sneers directed at single parents, or subjected to dodgy stats from lobby groups.

@stuckinatrap Totally agree. I divorced an abuser. I now have a partner with whom I have just had my third child. Don't want to remarry. I'm Miss X.

JassyRadlett I am not conflating anything. I am merely stating facts. Good marriages brings significant advantages for men, women and children. That is something to celebrate and be proud of. I’m delighted my children had the advantages we provided for them.

Yes in general, but with significant exceptions, marriage usually does mean families too. That’s not conflating the two but recognition of fact.

Why only women change titles is obviously historical and about ownership and protection. I don’t think many women nowadays feel owned; if they do, they should perhaps have thought harder before taking their vows.

I think sharing a family name is important. I think raising children in wedlock, in a stable family unit with the protection that affords is good. I don’t know any widows who changed their surnames from their married names or gave up using the title Mrs unless they remarried.

I assume most Ms’s are unmarried. No idea of the statistics around that though.

When my DF had an affair, then left and divorced her, my DM retained her married title and surname.
I assumed it was to make her ‘respectable’ in some way, put perhaps it was sticking two fingers up at the new Mrs.

JassyRadlett I am not conflating anything. I am merely stating facts. Good marriages brings significant advantages for men, women and children. That is something to celebrate and be proud of. I’m delighted my children had the advantages we provided for them.

Can you share the studies where these advantages are significant when controlled for other factors?

Lots of forward thinking women I know, have or are planning civil partnerships rather than marriage so to define us all by our marital status is incredibly old fashioned.

I prefer ms. because my status is nobody’s business and even my little son is a default mr at the doctors! I wouldn’t want a daughter to be a default ‘miss’ and feel less than him.

I posted earlier on here that we need a new, one fits all, title for women. I was told that we had one, Ms, but to me that sounds like an older unmarried woman as that’s what the unmarried teachers were called at my primary school.
Perhaps we come up with a new title ?

@DinosaurDiana

I posted earlier on here that we need a new, one fits all, title for women. I was told that we had one, Ms, but to me that sounds like an older unmarried woman as that’s what the unmarried teachers were called at my primary school. Perhaps we come up with a new title ?

Or maybe, just maybe, more women need to use Ms so the connotation changes? No need for a new title. We have one that does perfectly well.

(That also includes causal links - there is plenty on the characteristics of people who are more likely to get married - that is, those characteristics are more likely to lead to marriage, rather than being caused by the married state.)

I am divorced and remarried but still use the surname from my first marriage because we were married for over 20 years and it's the same surname as my 3 children. It is very much MY name now, not my ex's. But I also choose to use it with the title Ms as I am married but have a different name to my husband.

When I give my name, fill in forms etc and get asked the inevitable 'Is that Miss or Mrs?' I just say 'Neither' and then enjoy the confused silence:)

I’ve had this recently with an organisation. Signed off my email as Ms Chaos and kept getting replies to Miss Chaos. I wonder if it’s a way of putting uppity women who dare to be called Ms in their place.

Can you share the studies where these advantages are significant when controlled for other factors?

The last time Lemon shared 'stats' on this they were from a religious lobby group and the research completely ignored the most significant factors in family breakdown and elective single parents.

I assume most Ms’s are unmarried. No idea of the statistics around that though

And in this case not so much as a lobby group to back up the assumption.

Surely Ms is normal and polite and default everywhere? AIBU?

I don't think it is the default.

Ime far more people use Mrs or Miss than Ms.
At school we use whatever title is in the school documents, so,it might be worth checking that the document that school holds for you is correct.

I also think when speaking there's,not much difference in the way Miss and Ms can sound, especially in some accents.

Mind, I teach so I am constantly called by the wrong titles. It doesn't matter whether you teach primary or secondary, IMO, you always get a mix of titles and white often just 'Miss' on it's own. Often the parents do it too. 🤷‍♀️

I assume most Ms’s are unmarried. No idea of the statistics around that though.

If you don’t know the statistics (there aren’t any that I can find) then why assume it?

I know Mses who are married (including me), who have never married, who are divorced, who are widowed.

A bit derailed from the Mrs/Ms debate (although perhaps not in terms of validation of single parenthood and detriment).

The evidence (as opposed to lobby group views) may not appease or feel palatable to single parents, but there are hurdles created for children by consciously choosing single parenthood over married family upbringings.

The recognition of marital status and promotion of strong family units with carefully thought out and planned pregnancy might redress the somewhat hedonistic culture of doing exactly what we want at all times, regardless of potential consequences.

Of course some married couples are not ideal parents; that doesn’t change the evidence that far higher proportions of children from single parent households are disadvantaged.