To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

There is just no reason why 'we' need to be judging (or as you put it, commenting and expressing an opinion) someone's mental health in the workplace.

🤦🏼‍♀️ oh my days.

This is an abstract conversation, we are not ‘judging’ any one person. We are commenting on a broad and overarching topic.

You’re being utterly ridiculous and clearly just want to shut this bit of the conversation down because you don’t like it. I suggest you unfollow the thread because we are going round in circles here.

I can see why employers say that schools and universities are not producing leavers/graduates who are ready for the world of work. We create environments around young people that remove all risk of failure and everything is always someone else’s fault, or if it can’t be then it we blame our mental health

The outbreak of common sense on this thread is downright refreshing - as is the vote - and yes, I've been that employer

It's all too easy to claim that folk "can't" get a job, and in the post Covid world it's certainly going to be a lot harder, but who knows - perhaps it'll offer an opportunity for some cold hard realities to be taken on board

I keep hearing that 16 years old can't get job, how they have it hard, how it's unfair on them, how they have it so much tougher etc...that's from kids and parents residing in my town.

Yet, my three kids all managed to get a job after their GCSEs in 3 different sectors. Two had started volunteering in their place of work at 15 before being offered a job.

They had friends who claimed to be looking for a job too, but really didn't pay themselves at all to it, or face up after the first effort and rejection. Those who got jobs were those who have it 100% and didn't give up.

Yet, the response is always the same. It's not my fault, I'm unlucky, it's not fair, reasonings fully backed up by their parents.

Then it became 'why bother' and years later, they are even more defeated and convinced that getting a job is an impossible mission.

Sadly, it puts such a huge gap so earlier in between between those who are gaining experience and a positive attitude to the job market and those who have low confidence and defeating attitude with the former inevitably so much more employable.

dontdisturbmenow you just reminded me of when I recruited in a different sector and a mum I knew expected me to source a job for her 23 year old son who was, frankly, a complete waster

Knowing it was always going to be a no, I asked a few gentle questions about his qualifications and was told "Nah, he never bothered at school 'cos he knew there wasn't any jobs"

I followed up by asking how he filled his time - did he spend time with his friends perhaps?
"Nah, they're all at work"

This is an abstract conversation, we are not ‘judging’ any one person. We are commenting on a broad and overarching topic.
You’re being utterly ridiculous and clearly just want to shut this bit of the conversation down because you don’t like it. I suggest you unfollow the thread because we are going round in circles here
I'm not being ridiculous, nor shutting the conversation down.

I've repeatedly challenged your claim that mental health absences are problematic because we can't judge whether someone is genuine or not and found your mental gymnastics amusing (what is judgement, people don't know how a forum works etc).

Funnily enough, despite having claimed people need to be able to judge someone's mental health absences, you still won't say why people other than those directly around an individual (managers or HCP) need to be able to judge someone's reasons for absence, and you also won't say whether you consider it acceptable for people other than their manager/HCP to judge/comment on/express their opinions on someone's mental health at work.

Amusingly, that is an abstract discussion.

If you don't wish to answer then that's fine, but spare me the you're 'ridiculous', 'you're shutting down discussion' line and 'but this is abstract', you should unfollow the thread etc as a way of trying avoid the questions that you don't want to answer.

So OP, after 18 pages of varying opinions and scenarios how do you propose to help and encourage people to empower themselves and unleash their untapped and stifled potential?

What tools should be available and easily accessible, and how do you propose they should be introduced to them?

Should people be encouraged to think more or less about their inner selves? Or is self analysis a form of self indulgence to be discouraged or encouraged if the outcome is in better alignment with your perception of the problems of the world?

Finally, what are your thoughts on stoicism and Taoism, and would humankind benefit from the inclusion of philosophy in the school curriculum as a general subject from an early age delivered in an age appropriate manner?

Genuinely interested

So OP, after 18 pages of varying opinions and scenarios how do you propose to help and encourage people to empower themselves and unleash their untapped and stifled potential?

Toot toot! 🚂 the ‘what ya gonna do’ poster is here!

I don’t know if you’ve noticed but this is Mumsnet, not a petition website. I never claimed to be taking ‘action’, I just wanted to discuss it. You know where the ‘unfollow’ button is...

But in good faith my answers are:

a) people that can see toxic positivity for what it is need to gently question it in the public sphere (like I am doing, here), so it doesn’t go unchallenged

b) I think self analysis doesn’t go far enough. If you really got to the bottom of it you would realise we are a speck in time and space, our worries are unimportant in the scheme of things, and therefore we should live life on our own terms - don’t complain about things you can change.

C) yes I think so. Fiancé is very into stoicism and practises it quite well - it’s a kind of mental detachment which means you can view things in an objective way, without extreme emotion. Young people definitely need to be more stoic, and realise the more we obsess over mental health, the more it gives them complexes and places inordinate value on ‘feelings’ which in turn make you think you have no control

The adult human brain is not fully formed until 25, it is proven that teenagers/ early 20s cannot risk assess so it is not "mollycoddling" to still care for and guide children at that age, it's inhumane to cut them loose in their mid-teens with no support.

What some people don't seem to realise with this is a big part of what drives brain maturation is experience. It's not the only thing, but it is significant.

As a simple example, we know that children who do not get to practice risk-taking decisions don't develop that capacity and go on to have to learn as teens or young adults - when the stakes are often much higher.

As we've reduces the experiences and consequences and just autonomy that children have, we've created a situation where they are much slower to mature cognitively. It doesn't do anyone any favours.

Well I thank you for your "in good faith" answers with which I broadly agree.

I am a little perplexed at your presumption of my motives and your slightly ridiculing and dismissive tone, and your suggestion that I should unfollow as my previous posts and my questions should illustrate my genuine interest in this societal conundrum taking into account both our environmental and innate influences.

Out of further interest, how do you separate obsessing over mental health from self analysis? Some may say they are one and the same?

And also how does one uncouple our reactions from a world obsessed with our behaviour and how to change it for profit rather than for the promotion of intrinsic well-being?

If a subject should be discussed isn't it a positive step to posit possible change? I wasn't asking you to solve the problem, rather looking for the ideas that may contribute to doing so on a wider scale. So no petition necessary.....

@felulageller

There's a big age gap between my eldest and youngest. The eldest often comments on how different his childhood was.

• more freedom, stricter discipline, less safety conscious, exposed to more adult life, walking to school, unsupervised play, playing out in the evenings, variety of babysitters, sleepovers, pocket money, no home internet until older, no mobile until mid teen, no on demand TV, expected to make own snacks from early age, left to play alone in mornings, left to bath alone younger etc etc

compared to youngest child.

This is a change just since the millennium.

It's more of a change than between my parents (boomers) childhood and mine (gen x).

So as a patent my own parent has dramatically changed over a few years. I am much more protective of youngest. Why? I don't know!

It might be due to being an older parent. This generation has the oldest first time parents in human history.

We also have fewer children than at any time in history.

Children are also seen as a choice now in a post birth control world.

Plus there's all the mother blaming when kids do wrong.

No wonder they are more mollycoddled now.

My mother has noted something similar.

I have two sisters. I and my next sister were born in the late 70's/early 80s. My youngest sister was born in the late 80s.

This was in the same area, but there was a huge difference in child-rearing during that period. It went from , kids play out in the neighbourhood and at friends home, mostly walk to school (unless rural) right from age 5, many older kids had little jobs like delivering papers or dog walking or mowing lawns. Maybe you did one sport or activity.

To kids were dropped off at or walked to school, your parents made playdates or arranged visits with friends, no jobs and not so many chores really, lots more after school activities. Just far, far less time out of direct adult supervision, and less opportunity to engage in anything that seemed like real work.

This has continued apace and the changes in terms of things like school work, right up through to graduation, has also increased significantly. And with phones even young adult children are seldom required to really rely on themselves.

I have definitely noticed that on many threads it’s seen as taboo to say that you think someone is making bad choices, and there’s always a few people determined to make excuses for pretty awful things.

Someone could say ‘I saw a parent give their kid a red bull for their packed lunch’ and you’ll get a load of replies about how it’s not that simple, don’t judge, food poverty and deserts, they probably live near an off licence but tens of miles from any supermarkets and won’t have a car, lack of education etc.

On one hand sure, let’s look at systematic contributing factors for stuff like that, obesity etc. but on the other hand you can go too far in the other direction and say it’s wrong to judge any action whatsoever because there’s bound to be some tiny fringe valid excuse that might apply.

I wouldn’t say anything but I would personally judge a parent giving their child cold McDonald’s fries for lunch the next day. I just would. I’m not a perfect parent and I’m sure others would judge things I do too. But sometimes it is okay to acknowledge that some decisions are unwise or unfair to others.

It’s infantilising too, just because you’re poor doesn’t mean you’re thick. I’ve been so poor I’ve ended up bankrupt while working 80hr weeks and found time to make a few cheap easy Jack Monroe recipes for the freezer during my one free half hour of the day to make other days easier and save money. Not everyone can or will do that (and I’ve made unwise choices like pissing a tenner up the wall on cigarettes when stressed), but in most cases people do have choices. And once you have children it’s kinda imperative that you do make wise choices regarding their care as it’s not just you you’re affecting.

If you don’t have the space to be sympathetic ( I don’t always ) don’t get involved. What seems achievable to you could be a mountain to others

@Wondermule

I think it also creates a culture where people who are resilient are then expected to prop up those who aren’t. Which isn’t fair.

Man, I felt this!

I’m a resilient person, I’ve dealt with an awful lot of challenges and tragedies in my life so far (only early thirties currently) and always fought my way through them. I do find it irritating to see people who have zero resilience even though I know rationally that I must have been brought up to have it due to my life experiences and not everyone is. But it can be galling.

I remember at university in my final year, my mum was really poorly with addiction and on the cusp of dying, I was really poorly myself with chronic severe pain (as in, morphine daily levels of pain) while working two jobs and keeping up with my studies despite barely keeping my eyes open and being in tears with the pain. But I had no other choice as there wasn’t anyone there to catch me if I broke down, so I didn’t. Nobody was going to rescue me. Somehow I managed to keep going and graduated with honours, and there have been several other extremely challenging and painful times in my life where I’ve done the same.

The student in the room opposite me got an extension on her thesis because her grandmother had broken her wrist. That was such a huge tragedy, the worst thing she’d ever experienced, that she felt she couldn’t cope. Flew back to her parents house for sympathy and hot dinners.

That always stuck in my mind. I acknowledge I can’t have known the full story, only what she told me. But it’s hard when your life is in the shitter and you’re almost falling apart but have you keep functioning and you see others go to pieces for less. I guess it stings because you know you can’t, you’re not allowed to, and sometimes it’d be really nice.

I’m glad I’m a resilient person, incredibly thankful. But I wish I didn’t have to be all the time. So it comes out in bitterness towards those who aren’t. Even though it’s neither of our faults. These are some of my darkest thoughts I rarely allow myself to think about because I know they make me seem like an awful person.

I was in the park today. I was idly watching a group of four children who fell into my line of vision. They were probably aged about 7 down to toddler. No sign of an adult, but they were happily engaged in a game, each, even the little one, making sure everyone got a turn. After about 10 minutes mum appeared, from about 50 yards away but out of their sight, carrying lunch and was warmly greeted. They all sat down and passed the food around, the eldest calmly making sure the youngest had his.

It looked like a happy interlude in generally contented lives, where young children were learning to take responsibility and Mum wasn't stressing. I wouldn't be surprised if these children grow into self-confident and considerate adults.

I thought how horrified many on Mumsnet would be if they saw these poor neglected children. 'Anything' could have happened. The poor 7 year old, taking so much responsibility for the younger ones.

How much less stressful it would be to be subject to the parenting I was watching than the 'what if something happened' style so popular today.

@amicissimma

I was in the park today. I was idly watching a group of four children who fell into my line of vision. They were probably aged about 7 down to toddler. No sign of an adult, but they were happily engaged in a game, each, even the little one, making sure everyone got a turn. After about 10 minutes mum appeared, from about 50 yards away but out of their sight, carrying lunch and was warmly greeted. They all sat down and passed the food around, the eldest calmly making sure the youngest had his.

It looked like a happy interlude in generally contented lives, where young children were learning to take responsibility and Mum wasn't stressing. I wouldn't be surprised if these children grow into self-confident and considerate adults.

I thought how horrified many on Mumsnet would be if they saw these poor neglected children. 'Anything' could have happened. The poor 7 year old, taking so much responsibility for the younger ones.

How much less stressful it would be to be subject to the parenting I was watching than the 'what if something happened' style so popular today.

It’s tricky though because people know that social mores have changed, and if they leave their toddler in public without adult supervision an onlooker might well be very concerned, and might seek help. I know I’d be worried and wouldn’t necessarily do anything but I would keep an eye on them for a while until an adult appeared or maybe even go and ask where their parents were.

Not sure how old you are but I’m in my thirties and that’s not something any of my circle would consider doing. I’m not saying she’s even done anything wrong and it’d be lovely if we could safely leave our toddlers out of our sight and be confident no harm would come to them. But it’s so far out of the ordinary you can’t blame people for not wanting to do it. And gosh, it doesn’t make someone a helicopter parent for not having the same approach as that mum you saw.

@amicissimma

I was in the park today. I was idly watching a group of four children who fell into my line of vision. They were probably aged about 7 down to toddler. No sign of an adult, but they were happily engaged in a game, each, even the little one, making sure everyone got a turn. After about 10 minutes mum appeared, from about 50 yards away but out of their sight, carrying lunch and was warmly greeted. They all sat down and passed the food around, the eldest calmly making sure the youngest had his.

It looked like a happy interlude in generally contented lives, where young children were learning to take responsibility and Mum wasn't stressing. I wouldn't be surprised if these children grow into self-confident and considerate adults.

I thought how horrified many on Mumsnet would be if they saw these poor neglected children. 'Anything' could have happened. The poor 7 year old, taking so much responsibility for the younger ones.

How much less stressful it would be to be subject to the parenting I was watching than the 'what if something happened' style so popular today.

The thing is , even you ignore the rights or wrongs of it , society has changed.

Even if nothing bad happens, another passer by(random stranger,police,school staff etc) might witness what you did and decide that indeed it is wrong and report it. That is a real risk. Even if everything turns out ok, no one wants to deal with the police or SS paying them a visit ,questioning every choice and action etc.

DD is perfectly capable to walk to school and back.She's responsible, quite mature and tbh we live 5 minutes away with no roads. However the school won't let her and if I insist she does it I'd end up in a safeguarding meeting. It's just not worth it.

@AccidentallyOnPurposethe while ‘back in my day’ schtick is so disingenuous isn’t it: we’re not in those days anymore.

The way I see it, the vast majority of people that make continuous wrong choices, have low levels of resilience, lack personal responsibility etc aren't exactly happy, well adjusted people. A lot of them have difficult, hard ,even miserable lives . It can be exhausting ,demoralising and cause further trauma.

There's nothing to be envious of or get angry at. I wouldn't want their lives so yes I do have empathy and sympathy for them, even if sometimes it can be frustrating, especially if you're directly involved/personally affected.

I don't have any official diagnoses due to my background. That doesn't mean I wasn't suicidal, didn't self harm in various ways, didn't spend weeks not eating, didn't spend months locked in one room, and many many other issues.

It's easy to be dismissive , make snap negative judgements and decide you are definitely right. After all it takes seconds, no effort and it comes with a side bonus of feeling superior and "better than". Understanding and acceptance (not condoning or excusing) is much ,much harder.

Yes, it has changed, and that particular change is not a good thing.

It would be something to consider that we could you know, change it again towards a healthier approach.

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

The way I see it, the vast majority of people that make continuous wrong choices, have low levels of resilience, lack personal responsibility etc aren't exactly happy, well adjusted people. A lot of them have difficult, hard ,even miserable lives . It can be exhausting ,demoralising and cause further trauma.

There's nothing to be envious of or get angry at. I wouldn't want their lives so yes I do have empathy and sympathy for them, even if sometimes it can be frustrating, especially if you're directly involved/personally affected.

I don't have any official diagnoses due to my background. That doesn't mean I wasn't suicidal, didn't self harm in various ways, didn't spend weeks not eating, didn't spend months locked in one room, and many many other issues.

It's easy to be dismissive , make snap negative judgements and decide you are definitely right. After all it takes seconds, no effort and it comes with a side bonus of feeling superior and "better than". Understanding and acceptance (not condoning or excusing) is much ,much harder.

Do you realise the discussion isn't actually about you?

Yes, there are people with experiences like yours, or others, and I don't think anyone has suggested there isn't. In fact everyone has been at pains to say there are people who can't overcome their struggles and need real help.

But you seem to be completely unable to step outside your own personal experience and even listen to what people are saying.

Why do you think your observations are so clearly applying to all, while the observations of others that employees or students behave differently, for example around timekeeping, are just made up?

@SmokedDuck

Yes, it has changed, and that particular change is not a good thing.

It would be something to consider that we could you know, change it again towards a healthier approach.

How many accidental deaths or injuries would be acceptable if we do go "back"? How many neglected,abused etc would be acceptable if we do go "back"?

Things didn't change on a whim or for no particular reason. Most changes were implemented through the years,they took a long time and they were mostly spurred on by tragedies.

What you describe is nice but not necessary to a good,well adjusted and happy childhood.

• Do you realise the discussion isn't actually about you?

Yes, there are people with experiences like yours, or others, and I don't think anyone has suggested there isn't. In fact everyone has been at pains to say there are people who can't overcome their struggles and need real help.

But you seem to be completely unable to step outside your own personal experience and even listen to what people are saying.

Why do you think your observations are so clearly applying to all, while the observations of others that employees or students behave differently, for example around timekeeping, are just made up?*

Because OP (and others) are banging on about self diagnosis. They need a doctor to tell them that x or y are actually ill,or struggling,or off work for a reason before they'll consider any empathy.

I prefer to use my own experiences because using other's doesn't always sit well with me.

The point was that they don't know who is struggling and who isn't, who is trying and who isn't based on a few words on here , or something they saw when out or that colleague who has 7+ dead grandparents.

They don't know and they don't want to know either because piss takers. Of course there are piss takers, there always were ,there always will be.
And a previous generation will always complain about the current one.

I haven't ever said that people that say students are late ,don't do assignments or whatever are lying. I just commented on the generalisation aspect, because that bothers me.

They don't know and they don't want to know either because piss takers. Of course there are piss takers, there always were ,there always will be.
This.
There's always piss takers in life.
There's always people who need some compassion, but would fall short of a diagnosis.
There's always people who would meet the threshold for diagnosis, but for a range of reasons can't access what they need.
There's always people with diagnosed mental illnesses.

Running through all of this there is also always:
People who consider themselves blessed with the skill of knowing who is genuine/not based on some innate brilliance (same with the deserving/undeserving poor, and the horrible parents who just 'know' that child at school doesn't have SEN despite zero training in this area)
People who think anyone who doesn't respond how they would is obviously weak, or failing, or faking. This attitude is also seen on health threads where some posters will fall over themselves to point out they would consider making a GP appointment to be hypochondria as they threw a few stitches in their leg after amputating below the knee with a kitchen knife and still made it to the school gates(Joking obviously ).

How dare you!
IT'S NOT MY FAULT 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

You've got the absolute nail on the head. My thoughts exactly.