To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

There's a big age gap between my eldest and youngest.
The eldest often comments on how different his childhood was.

• more freedom, stricter discipline, less safety conscious, exposed to more adult life, walking to school, unsupervised play, playing out in the evenings, variety of babysitters, sleepovers, pocket money, no home internet until older, no mobile until mid teen, no on demand TV, expected to make own snacks from early age, left to play alone in mornings, left to bath alone younger etc etc

compared to youngest child.

This is a change just since the millennium.

It's more of a change than between my parents (boomers) childhood and mine (gen x).

So as a patent my own parent has dramatically changed over a few years. I am much more protective of youngest. Why? I don't know!

It might be due to being an older parent. This generation has the oldest first time parents in human history.

We also have fewer children than at any time in history.

Children are also seen as a choice now in a post birth control world.

Plus there's all the mother blaming when kids do wrong.

No wonder they are more mollycoddled now.

It's half-true.
But it's also more complex.

Take for example a person I know. Anxious, gets stressed easily. Could be seen as "weak", I suppose. Was also abused (emotionally, physically and financially) by a partner. Some of the emotional and financial stuff is still ongoing. She's so scared of him (and of getting into legal trouble over it all herself) she simply can not at this time take steps to sort it out.

To others, she may look like a weak person. She is incredibly strong, battles suicidal thoughts over it daily and has for years. And most people looking at her situation have no idea what she is going through. They see someone with "life choices" they think they can judge.

So I try not to judge.

I completely agree Rainbowroads. That is one of the reasons I decided to retire early from teaching primary. The level of resilience in many school children is worryingly low. As Rainbowroad has mentioned, whenever a child doesn’t want to do something, there is always a justification why they don’t need to do it. Children are told they can be anything they want to be when they grow up. I became fed up of hearing famous footballer, cage fighter or Insta star. There are many children who will not achieve educational results that give them access to universities. We should be promoting valued trade jobs like plumbing/ electrical that we are in dire need of. We as adults know that in the real world we can’t always be something we want to be, or that to try and get there we may need to work at many unglamorous jobs towards that goal.

I agree to a point.

I'm not sure what you can do. I know I'm not very resilient, I'm not proud of it.

However one thing I feel unable to do compared to the "snowflakes" extensively complained about on this thread, is ask for help, get adaptations, tell people about my "anxiety", etc, which has made me think. Are all the people that are doing these things really not resilient? Or are they getting things done in their own way. In some ways it takes bravery to, for example, ask a uni lecturer to give you more time for a task. I'd just fail without saying anything.

Everyone always tries to get ahead by doing the least and maybe this is today's way of doing that.

Another example: there is currently a thread running where OP is frustrated that the public are not better informed about ADHD in adults. OP believes they should be.

I see these threads a lot. With the best will in the world, why does everyone consider their own condition to be so special that the public need educating on it? I doubt the OP spends their spare time reading up on every condition under the sun in case they happen to come across it in real life.

And yes I have a medical condition where people say stupid stuff that annoys me. But - they’re trying to be kind. I can’t expect them to know the ins and outs of it. So I gently correct them, and move on. We’re all adults aren’t we?

In a way, isn't that expecting people to take more personal responsibility, @Wondermule? We are expected to know about all these conditions lest we offend someone? (Though I think learning to treat people with kindness and decency is definitely not unreasonable).

@Graciebobcat

In a way, isn't that expecting people to take more personal responsibility, *@Wondermule*? We are expected to know about all these conditions lest we offend someone? (Though I think learning to treat people with kindness and decency is definitely not unreasonable).

Well no because it’s reasonable to assume that the responsibility lies with the person with the condition, not the people that don’t. Plus that’s would mean everyone educating themselves on every condition ever in case they encountered somebody with it, and that is simply unfeasible.

@Wondermule

Another example: there is currently a thread running where OP is frustrated that the public are not better informed about ADHD in adults. OP believes they should be.

I see these threads a lot. With the best will in the world, why does everyone consider their own condition to be so special that the public need educating on it? I doubt the OP spends their spare time reading up on every condition under the sun in case they happen to come across it in real life.

And yes I have a medical condition where people say stupid stuff that annoys me. But - they’re trying to be kind. I can’t expect them to know the ins and outs of it. So I gently correct them, and move on. We’re all adults aren’t we?

I haven’t read that thread, but my daughter has Tourette’s.

While I don’t expect the general public to be experts on the subject of Tourette’s, it is a condition that is widely known about and the symptoms are pretty obvious.

DD (who is 15) has been called (this is just the polite stuff - there’s been much, much worse) “a freak” “a weirdo” by grown adults. Had adults pull their children away from her because she’s “weird”, people cross to the other side of the street, people filming her when having a horrible tic attack, people laughing at her

Whilst I don’t expect people to know the ins and outs of Tourette’s, I do expect them not to act like a massive twat about it.

Even if people do think she’s a freak, the decent thing to do is keep your gob shut and walk on by. She already feels like a “freak”, she doesn’t need reminding of it

@Springersrock that’s awful - but I would say that’s less to do with a lack of education, and more to do with people being sad little bullies. I would hazard a guess that they know she has Tourette’s but are simply twats. I would be furious if somebody I knew treated your daughter that way, and would definitely call them out.

I always call people out on it when I see it

I usually get something like “never heard of it, how am I supposed to know?”

As if shouting abuse at teenage girls is somehow ok anyway 🙄

However I, who started this thread, am just a nasty fucker that has an empathy bypass
You might be, you might not be. None of us know.

You do however come across as exceptionally goady with your comments about people's mental health.

Anyway, have you decided how you (with presumably no relevant medical professional knowledge) know enough about your colleagues to judge who has real mental health issues and who deserves to be off work?

Or was it just another grenade to throw into the thread so that when people challenge your attitude you can play the victim?

@LolaSmiles

However I, who started this thread, am just a nasty fucker that has an empathy bypass You might be, you might not be. None of us know.

You do however come across as exceptionally goady with your comments about people's mental health.

Anyway, have you decided how you (with presumably no relevant medical professional knowledge) know enough about your colleagues to judge who has real mental health issues and who deserves to be off work?

Or was it just another grenade to throw into the thread so that when people challenge your attitude you can play the victim?

I never said I know enough to judge who has real mental health conditions I asked how we can tell the difference.

The word ‘goady’ is meaningless, it just means discussing a topic that is controversial and you know will provoke opinion. It is people like you that make it goady by saying it’s goady. Everyone else is just chatting.

Wondermule

I never said I know enough to judge who has real mental health conditions hmm I asked how we can tell the difference
When I said to aPP I want people to properly recovered from illness you replied with:
That’s kind of the issue here. We are talking more about mental health than physical.
When posters challenged your suggestion thay people are taking a lend regarding mental health, you seem to rely heavily on the fact some people might be full of excuses to do a lot of heavy lifting (hence your But surely you accept sometimes people will be exaggerating or using it as an excuse? Or do you think that never happens?).

Why would you, as someone's colleague, need to know about their mental health?What is this 'we' you speak of?
The people who need to be aware of someone mental or physical health are the person concerned, the healthcare professionals working with them, and then their managers/HR need to know some relevant information for work.

Again, if someone is fraudulently claiming time off then there's procedure to follow. If someone has reached a threshold for attendance management then there is a procedure.

Your whole thread comes across very much as 'my life has had bad things happen and I've got health conditions but all these other people must be taking the piss, don't take any responsibility'.

Some people are full of excuses in life, twas ever thus. It doesn't mean anyone has to air their mental health struggles or demonstrate that they meet their colleagues' totally non-medically informed criteria for having a real mental health issue.

@LolaSmiles

Wondermule

I never said I know enough to judge who has real mental health conditions hmm I asked how we can tell the difference
When I said to aPP I want people to properly recovered from illness you replied with:
That’s kind of the issue here. We are talking more about mental health than physical.
When posters challenged your suggestion thay people are taking a lend regarding mental health, you seem to rely heavily on the fact some people might be full of excuses to do a lot of heavy lifting (hence your But surely you accept sometimes people will be exaggerating or using it as an excuse? Or do you think that never happens?).

Why would you, as someone's colleague, need to know about their mental health?What is this 'we' you speak of?
The people who need to be aware of someone mental or physical health are the person concerned, the healthcare professionals working with them, and then their managers/HR need to know some relevant information for work.

Again, if someone is fraudulently claiming time off then there's procedure to follow. If someone has reached a threshold for attendance management then there is a procedure.

Your whole thread comes across very much as 'my life has had bad things happen and I've got health conditions but all these other people must be taking the piss, don't take any responsibility'.

Some people are full of excuses in life, twas ever thus. It doesn't mean anyone has to air their mental health struggles or demonstrate that they meet their colleagues' totally non-medically informed criteria for having a real mental health issue.

Well, with physical health issues there is less scope to take advantage as it can be evidenced in a concrete way.

If you read back on the many, many posts regarding piss taking employees, there is at least some truth in what I’m saying.

I suffer with diagnosed, treated MH issues, and would not make light of them. I’m more talking about self diagnosed anxiety that seems to pervade every thread where the OP is being unreasonable but wants to validate what they’re doing somehow, and is stretching normal negative feelings into a ‘condition’ that excuses them from taking reasonable action.

If you read back on the many, many posts regarding piss taking employees, there is at least some truth in what I’m saying
I've not once said nobody takes the mick.

I'm questioning why 'we' need to be judge and jury when the vast majority of workplaces are not made of people with appropriate professional qualifications in that area.

If someone has good grounds for thinking a colleague is taking the piss when they are off work (after all you pointed out that it's being off with mental health issues that's problematic) then they can raise it and HR can follow the relevant procedure.
If their grounds are nothing more than 'I think they are taking the piss, they don't look mentally unwell, they were laughing on Tuesday, they can't be depressed because they went out for a meal with friends' then they need to wind their necks in.

Maybe that person has taken a lend and fooled the relevant health care professionals who have signed them off, maybe they are genuine. It sure creates a fairly shitty culture for people with mental health issues if they know they're surrounded by people who, with no relevant training, think they know more about mental health than healthcare professionals who have decided to sign someone off.

I’m more talking about self diagnosed anxiety that seems to pervade every thread where the OP is being unreasonable but wants to validate what they’re doing somehow, and is stretching normal negative feelings into a ‘condition’ that excuses them from taking reasonable action.
I agree with you on this though

@LolaSmiles

I'm questioning why 'we' need to be judge and jury

Well we’re not, are we? This is a discussion forum, I’m not starting a petition to end mental health being a reason for absence in the workplace.

So many people on mumsnet don’t seem to ‘get’ how discussion forums work.

Why are you so worried/bothered about the possibility of someone taking advantage ,real or imagined?

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

Why are you so worried/bothered about the possibility of someone taking advantage ,real or imagined?

You could ask that of anyone posting on here about a generalised topic.

Anyway I didn’t initially post about that, it just stemmed from the resilience point.

So many people on mumsnet don’t seem to ‘get’ how discussion forums work.

Funnily enough, I do get how a discussion forum works. Questioning your assertions doesn't mean not understanding how a forum works

I'm questioning why anyone who isn't someone's manager (who will have relevant information from any sick notes/occupational health) or healthcare professional needs to be able to judge if someone is off for whatever the judge decides is a genuine reason.

I'm not the one here who suggested that mental health absence is more problematic than physical health because how can 'we' can't tell the difference.

It's hardly surprising that many people with mental health issues don't open up, because the world has people of the 'well I was in a space war, lost my leg when we were attacked by aliens on the dark side of the moon and 3 of my friends in cosmic blast, when I returned my family had died, my husband left me and I still manage to show up 20 minutes early and do overtime... some bloody slackers' mentality.

@LolaSmiles

So many people on mumsnet don’t seem to ‘get’ how discussion forums work.

Funnily enough, I do get how a discussion forum works. Questioning your assertions doesn't mean not understanding how a forum works

I'm questioning why anyone who isn't someone's manager (who will have relevant information from any sick notes/occupational health) or healthcare professional needs to be able to judge if someone is off for whatever the judge decides is a genuine reason.

I'm not the one here who suggested that mental health absence is more problematic than physical health because how can 'we' can't tell the difference.

It's hardly surprising that many people with mental health issues don't open up, because the world has people of the 'well I was in a space war, lost my leg when we were attacked by aliens on the dark side of the moon and 3 of my friends in cosmic blast, when I returned my family had died, my husband left me and I still manage to show up 20 minutes early and do overtime... some bloody slackers' mentality.

But what is ‘judging’? If it means merely commenting or having an opinion, is this no longer allowed on any topic where one doesn’t have specialist knowledge? If that was the case we would have no threads at all.

But what is ‘judging’? If it means merely commenting or having an opinion, is this no longer allowed on any topic where one doesn’t have specialist knowledge? If that was the case we would have no threads at all.

Sigh. You're trying the whole faux naive thing. Nobody has said anyone needs professional knowledge to join in on a thread.

You replied to posters discussing people being off work and their return to work by saying that the problem with mental health absence over physical illness absence is that 'we' can't tell the difference between genuine or not.

You've been asked how you propose people with zero medical training should decide who is genuine and not given an answer.

You've been asked why anyone other than their health professionals or managers (with relevant info from sick notes/occupational health) would need to judge someone's mental health and reasons to be off and now you're saying But what is ‘judging’?.

Why would anyone in a workplace need to judge whether someone is absent for genuine mental health reasons other than their manager (who would have relevant information)?

Or, to use your judging is just 'commenting' or having an 'opinion' approach, why would anyone in the workplace need to be commenting or expressing an opinion on their colleague's mental health and absence? It sounds like a spiteful and unprofessional thing to do.

@LolaSmiles

But you’re acting like every absence is due to a medical diagnosis of MH issues. It isn’t.

It’s not just about absence - we have also discussed general lack of resilience causing lateness, laziness and refusal to do certain tasks.

You’re homing in on one small aspect of what this thread is about. The only reason we have discussed workplace absences so much is because you keep bringing it up.

At last a thread that discusses a real issue.

But you’re acting like every absence is due to a medical diagnosis of MH issues. It isn’t.
I'm not.
You just replied to a moment in the thread when me and another poster were discussing absences and decided that 'we' (people other than the person's manager with access to appropriate information, and healthcare professionals) need to be able to tell the difference.

As I have said several times, as far as I'm concerned if someone is taking the piss then there's procedures for that, and if someone has high levels of absence then there are procedures for that too.
There is just no reason why 'we' need to be judging (or as you put it, commenting and expressing an opinion) someone's mental health in the workplace.

It’s not just about absence - we have also discussed general lack of resilience causing lateness, laziness and refusal to do certain tasks
I know, but your replies to me are based on me and a PP discussing absence.

You’re homing in on one small aspect of what this thread is about. The only reason we have discussed workplace absences so much is because you keep bringing it up.
I'm bringing it up because I was replying to another poster about absence and you have made it clear you think that a colleague's absence for mental reasons is problematic because outsiders can't judge whether the colleague is genuine, and then you've jumped around and tried to start pseudo-philosophical arguments (what is judgement?), and tried to argue that I challenge non-medically trained professionals judging their colleague's mental health this apparently is a sign of not understanding how a forum works, and is me claiming people should only comment on threads within their professional remit (evidently not what was said).

It boils down to to fairly central questions, neither of which you seem willing to answer as you focus on all these so called piss takers:

Why do you think people other than someone's manager /relevant health professionals need to be able to judge whether someone's mental health issues are genuine?
Do you think it's acceptable for colleagues to judge/comment/express opinions on a fellow colleague's mental health in the workplace from postition of no relevant professional training?