To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

@Wondermule

The adult human brain is not fully formed until 25, it is proven that teenagers/ early 20s cannot risk assess so it is not "mollycoddling" to still care for and guide children at that age,

Teens and 20 something aren’t children. There in lies the problem I think.

Biologically speaking, anybody under 25 is a child as their brain is not fully developed.

Specifically, the part of the brain (frontal cortex) that deals with rationality and risk assessment.

@OPrettywoman

You've clearly never felt helpless OP and I really wouldn't wish it on anyone - just in case you think I'm wishing anything bad on you. I haven't read the whole thread, I've read your OP and you are so utterly tone deaf and completely blind to the fact that what your 'mental issues' might be might not be remotely comparable to someone else's. A really cruel and thoughtless post. NOW, I'll read back. If my mental issues don't prevent me from doing so of course........

I suggest you RTFT to get an idea of how my life has been 🙄

[quote Wondermule]@PolkadotZebras

Toot toot 🚂 here comes the ‘Be kind you NASTY VENOMOUS SPITEFUL PERSON’ train.

Can I also point out I am in my 20s 🙄[/quote]
I've just read this again and realised I think you are being sarcastic to me? (Apologies, as I said earlier I'm austistic so that kind of stuff takes me a while to understand, I speak very plainly and understand other posts in a similarly straightforward way).

I'm sorry that's what you've taken from what I've said as it's actually far more nuanced if you go back and read my posts. History tells us this judgement is not new and mellows in time. And that you're very unlikely to be justified in judging your peers so harshly without a lot more evidence to back you up. I think in 20 years or 40 years your view will be somewhat different, and your childrens'/ neices'/ nephews' views will be different again. Just focus on your own life and trying to do this right thing. Everything else is ashes and dust.

Honey, people are dealing with that shit and 10 times more on top. 20 times more at times.

And yet here you are advocating kindness apparently 🙄 couldn’t make this shit up could you? The ‘BeKind’ crew are just the worst...

No. There is absolutely a difference between being nervous in a situation that normally causes that, and being anxious. And then between anxious and being anxious all the time even when there is no particular reason to be by "normal people's" standards. And them being so cripper by anxiety that you can't go outside for months or pick up the phone or speak to strangers. You are being so dismissive of something which has crippled my life and many others. Because I had no support - no diagnosis of my autism and social anxiety and medication for that, until my late 30s - I had to cover up for it and pretend I was "ok" at great detriment to my own wellbeing and mental health. This is the "resilience" you speak of. It is not something we should wish on anyone. Stiff upper lip, suck it up and all that. It results in damage that cannot be undone,

I teach my children to talk about their feelings. But also that it's ok to fail or not be good at something. They can try again, persevere or try something else. Not everything has to work. Sometimes a "mistake" leads to something better. But to teach children to hide their emotions and pretend they are fine when they are not is massively damaging, plenty of research on this if you want to use a search engine.

What I've got from this thread is

I'm fine and those who are not need to pull their socks up

I had a lot of adversity and I'm fine and resilient so those who are not need to pull their socks up

And then the usual

Hello! I think people who xyz are doing it wrong etc
Posters. What about this and that and the other?
Response. Oh well I wasn't taking about them

The bit I liked best, and was a new one on me.

Was that people who are resilient due to really terrible times when young. Who have learnt that they can only rely on themselves. And get on with it. But are, inside. Pretty damaged.

Have the wrong sort of resilience!

That was a great point of view.

People aren't resilient enough!
I'm very resilient due to xyz but it was shit and I wouldn't wish that on anyone
Oh that's the wrong sort of resilience. People like that are brittle and likely to break at any moment...

Empathy and sensitivity- yay!

You need to have bad times to become resilience. BUT people who are resilient due to really terrible experiences when young are also.... No good. A bit rubbish.

These threads always go the same way but that was a special low point I think!

@OPrettywoman

*My childhood was awful, alcoholic dad, mum that did vanishing acts all the time, moved house every year sometimes less, eventual split, mum got into an abusive relationship, court case, subsequent evil stepmother, fell in with a bad crowd, I developed a serious chronic illness, I could go on.

Left home at 18, never went back. I spent years wallowing with a lot of unhealthy coping mechanisms, leading a pretty chaotic lifestyle. But then I thought fuck this, I can either make excuses for the rest of my life that won’t help me one iota, or I can get through this and build a life for myself. Which I did. I never dreamed I would have the life I do, but I made it happen. I feel very proud of myself actually.

I’m not saying because I can do it everyone can - but everyone should know it is only them that can make changes to their life. Maybe it’s simply that I believe in the strength of human spirit more than most?*

I'm guessing this is what you wanted me to read? Honey, people are dealing with that shit and 10 times more on top. 20 times more at times.

So yes, stand by my initial assessment.

I've been through everything listed here and more. You have my full respect for surviving it and coming out strong. Like a few of us said earlier in the thread, this "resilience" is often bred from tragedy and not something to wish upon anybody.

The initial feeling when life has dealt you such a cruel hand is one of anger and fury. And resentment of course against those who've had an easier ride yet done less as they didn't try so hard. And it's ok to have little sympathy for them, IF you really know their circumstances and struggles as well, because as you of all people will know, many people hide their struggles. So how many of the people you know do you really know the intimate secrets of and fairly judge?

Have you read John Rawls? Dante's Inferno? Aristotle? Sartre? Camus? These things gave me a new perspective on life.

Much as it is trite, it is true that time heals and resentment and fury at the world in general subsides and then I think people with our kind of experiences often come to the view that our rage should be for the people who create childhoods like ours, not those who have easier ones. We don't want all children to be a survivor, we want them not to have to.

@Wondermule

The adult human brain is not fully formed until 25, it is proven that teenagers/ early 20s cannot risk assess so it is not "mollycoddling" to still care for and guide children at that age,

Teens and 20 something aren’t children. There in lies the problem I think.

Biologically, yes, until 25 they are actually.

Agree polkadot

My situation was that I was born with a physical abnormality that wasn't recognised when I was a baby/ toddler.

I spent a pretty large amount of time through secondary school in a specialist children's hospital. My mobility was compromised. I stayed on a ward with other children/ young people who had sometimes. Well. They were going to die. Some died. The ones who were having complex brain surgery mainly.

My operations were not risk free. There was always the fear that I might not come back/ or I would lose mobility.

I was told that I would be in a lot of pain from 18 and unable to walk by 21.

That's a lot to take on when you're 13.

It messed me up TBH. My parents were very distant and medicalised about it.

Now I am at peace with my limitations and fortunately the scenario I was told confidently by the surgeon has not come to pass.

I've always been limited and different though.

Yes it gives me perspective. I went to a school with high rates of anorexia and bulimia. I have total body confidence and the whole thing of female insecurity about body never touched me.

Is it worth it? No. I would say not.

All that pain. All that difference.

Yes I am resilient. Of course. But at what cost?

And then. Me and another poster who agreed, and on a previous thread as well. These viewpoints. From people who know they are resilient and why. Are discarded.

Oh I didn't mean that.

I still see the fact that me and the other poster were told we had the wrong sort of resilience as kind of awesome. That we are brittle and could break at any minute.

Sorry. Not going to happen. We keep going you see. No matter what. And we know that the only ones who it's down to are us.

Wrong sort of resilience and liable to break

I do think those who have had it hard tend to have more empathy and an inclination to help more. That's why charities for various things are set up by people who have experienced those things. Why lots of people don't care until it happens to them or someone they love.

Human nature obviously.

On these threads though the abrupt dismissal of those who may have some insight is really interesting to

@NiceGerbil

Agree polkadot

My situation was that I was born with a physical abnormality that wasn't recognised when I was a baby/ toddler.

I spent a pretty large amount of time through secondary school in a specialist children's hospital. My mobility was compromised. I stayed on a ward with other children/ young people who had sometimes. Well. They were going to die. Some died. The ones who were having complex brain surgery mainly.

My operations were not risk free. There was always the fear that I might not come back/ or I would lose mobility.

I was told that I would be in a lot of pain from 18 and unable to walk by 21.

That's a lot to take on when you're 13.

It messed me up TBH. My parents were very distant and medicalised about it.

Now I am at peace with my limitations and fortunately the scenario I was told confidently by the surgeon has not come to pass.

I've always been limited and different though.

Yes it gives me perspective. I went to a school with high rates of anorexia and bulimia. I have total body confidence and the whole thing of female insecurity about body never touched me.

Is it worth it? No. I would say not.

All that pain. All that difference.

Yes I am resilient. Of course. But at what cost?

And then. Me and another poster who agreed, and on a previous thread as well. These viewpoints. From people who know they are resilient and why. Are discarded.

Oh I didn't mean that.

I still see the fact that me and the other poster were told we had the wrong sort of resilience as kind of awesome. That we are brittle and could break at any minute.

Sorry. Not going to happen. We keep going you see. No matter what. And we know that the only ones who it's down to are us.

Wrong sort of resilience and liable to break

I do think those who have had it hard tend to have more empathy and an inclination to help more. That's why charities for various things are set up by people who have experienced those things. Why lots of people don't care until it happens to them or someone they love.

Human nature obviously.

On these threads though the abrupt dismissal of those who may have some insight is really interesting to

I have so much respect for you and cannot imagine what you have been through. You really are astonishing, that you write with so much empathy for others despite all of this pain when so many posts here are so cold but that is that exact point you're making and you're right: it seems both our empathy and understanding grows with tragedy. But this thread to me almost seems like a fight against those who haven't directly experienced trauma and tragedy developing empathy, a call to callousness if you will, and I think that's why it made me so sad. Being kind is not something to be ridiculed.

I am amazed what you have survived, I hope you have a happy life now despite these limitations. I think you are insprirational and would be happy to PM if you want to.

That's a lovely thing to say polkadots! Thank you.

Feel free to pm if you wish. I'm not very chatty on social media generally though!

I'm very pleased that you have survived all the shit you've been through as well :) it's a massive achievement that most people won't ever even know about or recognise.

@LadyCatStark

I do think this is true and is getting even worse in the younger generations. DH manages several ‘gen Z’ well qualified, high earning for their age people and there’s always as reason why they can’t do literally any task asked of them that they don’t wish to do. And it’s always DH’s fault no matter how many hours and hours he’s put in to supporting them and talking them through things or providing a mentor or training.

Like you I don’t mean to belittle mental health issues, but they always cite anxiety, which usually boils down to bog standard nervousness.

Oh utter bollocks. I'm sure there are no 50 and 60 year olds in the workplace who don't do tasks they don't want to do and make excuse after excuse for not doing it. What you are talking about is a human trait.

Moaning about the youth of today though means that you are starting to be out of touch and irrelevant yourself.

And resilience comes from kindness, love, security and developing high self-esteem and confidence, not bullying, belittling and severe criticism.

@OPrettywoman

The initial feeling when life has dealt you such a cruel hand is one of anger and fury. And resentment of course against those who've had an easier ride yet done less as they didn't try so hard.

Honestly, my experience was entirely different. I felt nothing but fear, desolation, desperation, hopelessness. Never anger or fury. After a time, a desolate sadness (in therapy) for that little child, but never once did I feel anger or fury. Resentment? Towards the perpetrators yes. Towards my comrades? Envy perhaps, but never resentment.

Your 'truth' isn't the only 'truth'.

I'm sorry, but taking one small part of what I said in reply to you out of context and ignoring the rest is disingenuous at best and fairly meaningless and is dies not represent the balance of what I said.

Not to mention that what you quoted was a response to another poster's specific situation, not said to you.

Totally with you on this one OP. Very thought provoking thread.

@OPrettywoman

The initial feeling when life has dealt you such a cruel hand is one of anger and fury. And resentment of course against those who've had an easier ride yet done less as they didn't try so hard.

Honestly, my experience was entirely different. I felt nothing but fear, desolation, desperation, hopelessness. Never anger or fury. After a time, a desolate sadness (in therapy) for that little child, but never once did I feel anger or fury. Resentment? Towards the perpetrators yes. Towards my comrades? Envy perhaps, but never resentment.

Your 'truth' isn't the only 'truth'.

Comeradee? If you were a child when you were like those of us trying to talk here, you would have had no idea what that word even meant. Sorry, but this is total bullshit and you are derailing the thread from people actually trying to connect to each other who really need to so just stop, please.