To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

For someone to have rights others must have responsibility.

It's supposed that we all take our share of responsibility in return for our rights... but a lot of people don't like to pull their weight.

A recent example - a colleague got a jury summons and lied about a holiday to get out of it. I asked if if he understood that trial by jury is a fundamental tenant of English law and a basic guarantee of the rule of law ?

He looked at me like I had just got out of a ufo, laughed and said " for a minute there I thought you were serious" !

But he will expect the U.K. authorities to provide him with assistance when he is on holiday if he needs it, he will benefit from the safety regulations on his aircraft, his car parked at the airport will be protected by cctv and the police should someone try and steal it etc etc

It's so easy to forget just how important you are as an individual - you are not special or unique, and the world at large really doesn't care about you, but what you do does matter and so you should do your best as much as you can. Aim for character rather than personality

how often have you ever heard advice along those lines? It's what a lot of people need to hear really.

The school, rather than stand up to the parents, decided to make friend mark some (hastily done) essays at short notice. Many were poor, and that was also her fault according the most of the parents. If only she’d done a better job, their child would have a better mark for that piece of work. It was awful- what did those young people learn?

Universities are now like this as well. Every assignment generates a flood of excuses in the few days preceding and the day it is due.

Things like "it is exam time and so I have a lot of work, could I get an extension on this" or "I have not yet bought the book and so I haven't been able to do the assignment, can I pass it in later?"

When marks are passed out, there comes a flood of requests to have them increased, things like "I need a higher mark on this to keep my scholarship, can you increase the mark t a B?"

This, and the getting to work on time, not being willing to do things that make them uncomfortable - those are the things that resonate with me as significant changes. Twenty years ago the numbers were nothing like similar, and 50 years ago even less so.

I tend to think a lot of the responsibility stuff bleeds off from this weird attitude to work somehow.

@Warsawa31

For someone to have rights others must have responsibility.

It's supposed that we all take our share of responsibility in return for our rights... but a lot of people don't like to pull their weight.

A recent example - a colleague got a jury summons and lied about a holiday to get out of it. I asked if if he understood that trial by jury is a fundamental tenant of English law and a basic guarantee of the rule of law ?

He looked at me like I had just got out of a ufo, laughed and said " for a minute there I thought you were serious" !

But he will expect the U.K. authorities to provide him with assistance when he is on holiday if he needs it, he will benefit from the safety regulations on his aircraft, his car parked at the airport will be protected by cctv and the police should someone try and steal it etc etc

It's so easy to forget just how important you are as an individual - you are not special or unique, and the world at large really doesn't care about you, but what you do does matter and so you should do your best as much as you can. Aim for character rather than personality

how often have you ever heard advice along those lines? It's what a lot of people need to hear really.

You, OP, and other posters aren't special either. You haven't discovered sliced bread. You're not drawing attention to a pandemic of weakness, lack of resilience/personal responsibility etc.

You're just repeating the same old , trite value and moral judgements that have been made for thousands of year .

There's nothing special or new about your complaints. There's no revelation and aha moment to be had here.

Technically I should be looking down on all of you as I come from a country without free healthcare, that for years didn't have any human rights , education wasn't really free and still doesn't really have a welfare system. So every time you moan about anything being hard, the NHS, police, education etc you're being entitled,snowflakey and you don't know how bloody good and easy you have it.

Oh , wait. I'm not a dick to make generalisations about millions of people based on nothing much except "they have it easier and they're still moaning".

Because that's what it comes down to. Resentment and prejudice against people you perceive as having an easy ride and they're just not grateful enough to jump whatever subjective moral hoop is demanded of them. Children,women(either as a class, or white women,single mums, council housing ..several types have been mentioned), young people, people with mental health conditions or illnesses, fat people etc.

But surely you accept sometimes people will be exaggerating or using it as an excuse? Or do you think that never happens?

And?

@AccidentallyOnPurpose exactly. Cliché othering per the ancient parts of the human brain. Indicating people who haven't fully developed their frontal lobe capabilities so that they're capable of rational thought, that overrides instincts of tribalism, status seeking and treading all over those they perceive as "weaker". I am autistic and a lot of what I see on this thread appears to be an empathy bypass... I suppose not all stereotypes are true and perhaps, objectively, young people aren't mostly wasters 🤔🙄 (which as you pointed out, has been the opinion of older generations for thousands of years; the old issue of history repeating itself until people are wise enough to read it and learn its lessons comes to mind).

@AccidentallyOnPurpose

You are quite right that I'm not special but beyond that I can't really see any point you are making either ? We don't have free healthcare there's no such thing as free :) we have tax payer funded healthcare which is an example of taking responsibility ( well being forced to)

I think in my example I pointed out the importance of not taking the privileges we have here in the west for granted ? Ie it relies on us all to play our part.

Your post came across as massively judgemental into be honest. I didn't suggest that people don't have difficulties - hey we are all born into a loosing struggle and our ultimate fate is death. Life isn't easy whatever your circumstances. But that doesn't mean you should avoid doing stuff that you find hard.

You might think there's nothing new too be learned but personal responsibility isn't talked about a great deal in general.

The last few posts have confirmed my initial suspicion. For some people, there is literally no line past which a person is accountable for their own actions. We are essentially flesh robots, victims of evolution, subconscious psychology, and undiagnosed anxiety complexes.

However I, who started this thread, am just a nasty fucker that has an empathy bypass

Well I don't think you're a nasty fucker OP, you're just getting older. It's relatively normal to develop a superiority complex over younger generations

@Wondermule

The last few posts have confirmed my initial suspicion. For some people, there is literally no line past which a person is accountable for their own actions. We are essentially flesh robots, victims of evolution, subconscious psychology, and undiagnosed anxiety complexes.

However I, who started this thread, am just a nasty fucker that has an empathy bypass

At some point or another nearly everyone is held accountable for their actions. Just because it's not in the way you want it to happen or when you want it to happen doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

The piss takers at my work place were the first to go when redundancies were made. The ones that train there and take the piss don't get a job offer. The ones that coast did not get a stellar performance review which in better times came with a cash bonus. Various other examples. That's strictly talking in the work place.

In general terms , if it's that easy and beneficial why don't you do it too?

[quote Warsawa31]@AccidentallyOnPurpose

You are quite right that I'm not special but beyond that I can't really see any point you are making either ? We don't have free healthcare there's no such thing as free :) we have tax payer funded healthcare which is an example of taking responsibility ( well being forced to)

I think in my example I pointed out the importance of not taking the privileges we have here in the west for granted ? Ie it relies on us all to play our part.

Your post came across as massively judgemental into be honest. I didn't suggest that people don't have difficulties - hey we are all born into a loosing struggle and our ultimate fate is death. Life isn't easy whatever your circumstances. But that doesn't mean you should avoid doing stuff that you find hard.

You might think there's nothing new too be learned but personal responsibility isn't talked about a great deal in general.[/quote]
Apologies, I started with one point from your post and then it turned into a mashup of what other posters have commented.

While I stand by what I said it was wrong to aim it all at you. It should've been more of a general post.

@GhostPenguin

Well I don't think you're a nasty fucker OP, you're just getting older. It's relatively normal to develop a superiority complex over younger generations

I’m in my 20s

we are all born into a loosing struggle and our ultimate fate is death.

Oooh I like this, I shall use it.

@Wondermule

I agree with your stance and I'm in my early 30's maybe that is old though lol

We all know people who carry on with life no matter what - as well as ones that don't realise you cant feed a 3 month old chocolate buttons 🤦‍♀️. There really isn't an excuse in the days of the internet to not know that.

Competence hard work and effort are the backbone of our success as a species - they should always be a valued. We aren't equal and not everyone can do everything but the people who impress me the most in life are the ones that give it a fucking go. It's as simple as that

@rawlikesushi this is so true. I worked at a university for a while and year after year parents would get worse when new students started. Many would book hotels nearby for first two weeks their child started.

We would also have to tell students - if you can, try not go home for two weeks. It's a big change but see if you can get to that point and settle yourselves in. So many went home and didn't come back.

And don't get me started on the parents who would constantly call asking about results or whatever!

Totally agree with you, OP

Because that's what it comes down to. Resentment and prejudice against people you perceive as having an easy ride and they're just not grateful enough to jump whatever subjective moral hoop is demanded of them. Children,women(either as a class, or white women,single mums, council housing ..several types have been mentioned), young people, people with mental health conditions or illnesses, fat people etc

Totally agree @AccidentallyOnPurpose And people wernt too bothered about poorer people participating in and being a full part of society before. But then come Covid, social distancing, staying at home , mask wearing and vaccines, all of a sudden they want poorer people to be a part of society. Well go figure!! Like Al Pacino said in Sea of Love. "come the wet ass hour you are everybodys Daddy" This thread is just proof that it will revert to the default once this pandemic is over.

@Housing101

Agree OP. I work for a council housing dpt, attempting to help families who are at threat of homelessness.

More than half the time it's their own fault (the adults in the family). Bad choices, spending money on the wrong things (yes i've spotted your Audi car keys on my desk and latest iPhone, nails done), not working enough hours or taking sensible opportunities, not taking initiative to earn more or live somewhere affordable, having multiple kids.

It's predictable and they come back to the council expecting endless assistance every time they get evicted or need more space. There's always excuses. If they took responsibility for themselves they'd be living happier less turbulent lives IMO and more assistance would be available for those who should actually need to be helped.

I was a council housing officer years ago, things obviously haven't changed except for the even greater shortage of social housing. I believe in rights and responsibilities, but there are people, of all ages, who only seem to want the first to apply to them. I believe its inter generational, their nan, then their mum got a council house (which she may now have bought!) and its their right to have the same, and not work because they have a child. Or several. And then its their right to have a bigger place. And it often seems the dad's right to not be in the picture, and not contribute. I agree re some of the spending choices too.

I was a working mum in the 70s when many of my better off friends stayed at home, and although DH and I were never very well off, and a long way from our families, we did our best. He took some crummy jobs to keep a roof over our heads. If nothing else, we gave our children a work ethic, which they've put to good use. How will our grandchildren fare? They know they can't win at everything, they've already had their realistic disappointments, along with some successes. I hope it will stand them in good stead for life.

@Wondermule

The last few posts have confirmed my initial suspicion. For some people, there is literally no line past which a person is accountable for their own actions. We are essentially flesh robots, victims of evolution, subconscious psychology, and undiagnosed anxiety complexes.

However I, who started this thread, am just a nasty fucker that has an empathy bypass

That isn't what anybody is saying.

So my personal experience: abusive childhood, looking after myself since I was in my mid teens. Autism not diagnosed until my late 30s.

I went through a lot of trauma. As a result I am very resilient and very successful in life. But also a very damaged person and some of these wounds can never be repaired, even though they are the exact reason that I am resilient and have become successful.

What people are saying is should we really inflict that pain on young people deliberately so that older people don't call them a "snowflake"? Or is it ok to have a kinder society where young people learn the "resilience" skills that people like me had to learn at 14-16 at 25 instead, when their adult brains are fully formed and they won't be permanently damaged by the experience?

Yes parenting in childhood to teach children how to accept failure and learn perseverence is important. I've not seen anyone on the thread deny this. And yes I agree some parents don't do this - BUT that was always the case in every generation. Most parents do do this teaching, we've perhaps just become a bit kinder about recognising individual differences than, for example, in my youth, when "nobody noticed I was autistic". So yes, I have diagnosed anxiety disorder and I find some of these comments massively offensive because you may well have said these things about me in my teens or twenties before my ASC and anxiety disorder was diagnosed.

Try to have some compassion, read the post of @AccidentallyOnPurpose for some perspective on how all generations look at the ones who come after and be a little more humble. This whole conversation is crazed when you read it back in that if someone read it in 200 years they would have no idea which century it came from.

I'm not a great mother, but one thing I have instilled in my children is responsibility for actions. I've had some horrible times in my life but I take ownership for when I should have walked away sooner or when I failed to be act sooner. I believe its important that we as adults ensure that children learn early on that our actions/behaviour have positive and negative consequences.

What people are saying is should we really inflict that pain on young people deliberately so that older people don't call them a "snowflake"?

But the things that are apparently counting as "pain" by this measure are crazy. Not having to be on time? Not having to pass in assignments on the due date? Having to talk to someone when it made you nervous, or problem solve on your own without parental help at times? Failing an assignment when you didn't do what was necessary?

These are the kinds of natural consequences and experiences that have begun to disapear for many children. It's completely normal for school chldren to pass in work at any point in the school year and expect to get full marks. Many bright children don't really have to extend themselves at school at all to do well, and are shocked and don't know how to deal with it when they get real work at university or a job.

People aren't suggesting children go through abuse, but that they have some normal experiences of being responsible for themselves, which have become increasingly uncommon.

@Seasidemumma77

I'm not a great mother, but one thing I have instilled in my children is responsibility for actions. I've had some horrible times in my life but I take ownership for when I should have walked away sooner or when I failed to be act sooner. I believe its important that we as adults ensure that children learn early on that our actions/behaviour have positive and negative consequences.

I agree completely, but that's not what's been said on this thread by many. If your children were struggling for a valid reason I presume you would support them not dismiss it and call them "snowflakes"? (One of the worst insults ever as an aside, as every snowflake is unique and they are one of the most beautiful and perfect things that exist in the human experience of nature - but that is a tangent).

Many if the post here seem full of spite and venom and an unwillingless to accept that if we protect mental health, we come out with more productive adults. Much of it smacks as bitterness and resentment that in some ways younger people now have easier lives due to technologicial advancements (this has always been the case, hence the posts by @AccidentallyOnPurpose). The other side is that they have their own harder challenges to face, around the devastating impact on their lives of climate change and the resulting wars, famine and mass migrations never seen before. All of which were caused by the generations before them. So if I were you I'd hold back my judgement as they'll soon be coming to judge you for your actions or lack thereof.

@PolkadotZebras

Toot toot 🚂 here comes the ‘Be kind you NASTY VENOMOUS SPITEFUL PERSON’ train.

Can I also point out I am in my 20s 🙄

@SmokedDuck

What people are saying is should we really inflict that pain on young people deliberately so that older people don't call them a "snowflake"?

But the things that are apparently counting as "pain" by this measure are crazy. Not having to be on time? Not having to pass in assignments on the due date? Having to talk to someone when it made you nervous, or problem solve on your own without parental help at times? Failing an assignment when you didn't do what was necessary?

These are the kinds of natural consequences and experiences that have begun to disapear for many children. It's completely normal for school chldren to pass in work at any point in the school year and expect to get full marks. Many bright children don't really have to extend themselves at school at all to do well, and are shocked and don't know how to deal with it when they get real work at university or a job.

People aren't suggesting children go through abuse, but that they have some normal experiences of being responsible for themselves, which have become increasingly uncommon.

There is a fine line. Lots of people citing how "resilient" children used to be compared to now are talking about periods when most children where hit by parents, neglected, etc. Even if no "abuse" by the standards at that time. Society has moved on - thank goodness. Yes children need to be taught to try and fail, and pick themselves up: gently, with love. The adult human brain is not fully formed until 25, it is proven that teenagers/ early 20s cannot risk assess so it is not "mollycoddling" to still care for and guide children at that age, it's inhumane to cut them loose in their mid-teens with no support. There is a balance to be had here between the polarises views which are both silly. We can recognise the changes in society and support our children until they are adults biologically not just in law, so that they become healthy but independent humans. Or we can hark to some random left or right wing agenda without considering the science and either let them live at home forever and never be responsible for anything, or kick them out as teenagers and tell them it's all up to them to sort out, respectively. Both of those views are equally unrealistic, unscientific and ridiculous.

The adult human brain is not fully formed until 25, it is proven that teenagers/ early 20s cannot risk assess so it is not "mollycoddling" to still care for and guide children at that age,

Teens and 20 something aren’t children. There in lies the problem I think.

[quote Wondermule]@PolkadotZebras

Toot toot 🚂 here comes the ‘Be kind you NASTY VENOMOUS SPITEFUL PERSON’ train.

Can I also point out I am in my 20s 🙄[/quote]
I have very young childre. I fear for them and I also work a lot with young people and find them amazing: insightful, smart and socially responsible. The fact they are kinder to people who have problems is a GOOD THING. Yes, some people will take advantage. But like benefit fraud, that is vanishingly small. People are asking for help when they need it now: this is good and should not be ridiculed. It is actually far better to help someone and let them become a happy person so they can contributed to society in whatever way they can. Why are people so hostile and mean? Support each other then we'll all be stronger. I do not get it. I had to fight my way out. I don't want that for anyone else, and I'm baffled why others want others to go through that kind of trauma to get to success. We all benefit from a happier society where everyone is supported. Look at the Nordic countries if you need proof, i am in my 40s OP btw. You are not alone.