To think personal responsibility no longer exists

[Wondermule]

I know this is going to be a controversial post, so I’ve got my hard hat on 🪖

It has really dawned on me how little personal responsibility people take now. Every other thread seems to be someone posting to offload their problems (financially dependant relationship, COVID worries due to high BMI, hellish mother in law among the most common) yet there is always an excuse about why they can’t the advice given, usually drip feeding something about anxiety or mental health. Please don’t see this as me making light of mental health issues (sufferer here myself), but it doesn’t change the fact only you can make changes to your life.

Also many posts citing ‘lack of support’ - this one inspired by the chocolate button debacle! - a mum feeding her 3 month old chocolate buttons just didn’t have the ‘support’ or ‘education’ to make healthy choices apparently. Never mind the healthy start vouchers for fruit and veg, maternity grant, free weaning courses at children’s centres, all the help available online... it’s all the state’s fault. I feel ‘lack of support’ will be cited until the government send someone to prepare all her meals and police her shopping trolley.

I feel in being too sympathetic, it is just providing excuses for people not to take responsibility for their own choices. Or am I wrong??

I don't think it exists less now than in previous generations. Some may not have seen as much of it in our own or our parents' generation, but it was there - what's 'wine o'clock' now was mother's little helpers then, and there have always been women who chose children with men that they'd hoped would change (though not all had a choice). Every generation complains of the next since ancient times (though Gen X and the Xennial cusp tend to get ignored with Millennials getting it from both older generations and Gen Z).

Personally, among the many words overused in this pandemic, one of the top ones for me is resilience - something that has a large genetic component and is built by going through hard thing and the outcome - good or bad - ending up worthwhile. It doesn't come just from doing hard/scary stuff, the end result matters in whether our brain learns we can do hard/scary stuff again and it doesn't have to be on our own. People build resilience when supported by others through the process, it's how young child do it, and people who have strong resilience in one area don't automatically have it in all areas. That's part of why people work together. We're a social species that have limited ability to process and regulate on our own, we function better doing it together, we're more resilient and responsible together, for good and for bad.

Really, I don't think there is less personal responsibility, but there may be more of a growing cultural individualistic attitude contributing a lack of recognizing we're not actually all that independent - every single one of us relies on other people, we're all dependant on others, we're all part of groups and systems that enable us to live our lives that we could do otherwise so rather than pointing the finger to other individuals not being independent or responsible enough and how unfair that is, maybe we could look at the systems - including ourselves as part of it - for how the weakest in our society are being failed. If Neanderthals could care for their weak, we can too.

I agree and I am a person who is struggling as a single mum of 3. Looking back I gave into everyone around me never spoke up for myself and let my ex bully me into having more children. Yes he was abusive but I should have left and done more.

To turn this around I’m working school hours and taking every bit of training I can get to change things for the better. I have come to accept that I probably will never own a house but I can work towards living somewhere better than here. I’m trying to make a point of putting myself out of my comfort zone at every opportunity and fighting my anxiety as much as I can. My children get sick of me telling them life’s not fair when they moan “it’s not fair.”

My oldest was hospitalised with anorexia in the first lockdown but she refused to use it as an excuse to miss school or to get extra help with her GCSEs as she wants to do it on her own and I’m proud of her for that. I know not everyone can do that but some use everything as an excuse.

I think there IS a problem with molly-coddling of children and young people. They are not expected to learn to manage normal emotions in many cases- e.g. being worried about exams means they “have anxiety” and need special help with exams. Rather than reassured that being worried is normal and helped with exam techniques and practice, for instance. Of course, there are children who genuinely do have anxiety, depression or OCD etc- and of course they should be supported appropriately.

As I said, we have something akin to apprenticeships (not called that) and college placements at the farm/DH’s business. There has definitely been a noticeable change in the young people coming through. Not everyone of them- but a growing minority, definitely. I have never come across so many young people who are unprepared for work- even turning up on time seems to be alien to them. If they don’t like something they are asked/expected to do the list of excuses are quite endless. More recently, there are parents who want us to go to them with any issues- despite the fact the “child” in question has left school and is being paid as an adult. Some of the college students have been a headache. So much so that we are thinking of pulling out/reducing the numbers we take from one of the courses as more problematic than the other. 10 years ago, the problems happened, of course, but it was the odd one or two. I do think there has been a change.

And before anyone says it- I am NOT saying all young people are feckless/stupid/irresponsible/ a “snow-flake” etc. Many young people are lovely, responsible, capable, resilient and hard-working. BUT i do think there is an increase in learned helplessness/avoidance of anything they dislike/find boring/makes them anxious, and unable to tolerate failure.

I think it stems from the molly-coddling that is on the rise from both parents and school. If something is hard, then it should be made easier/more help/not be compulsory- or if they are “anxious” then they need to be told how to do it/given special help or conditions. It is teaching young people how to be helpless, not how to help themselves or how to overcome any difficulties they experience. That they should fear failure but that if they do fail, it was inevitably someone else’s fault- the school didn’t help enough, the teacher wasn’t good enough, the exam/assignment etc was too hard/not fair etc. Not every parent, not every child. But growing numbers, in my experience.

Not just our experience- my friend is a high school teacher. She had a small cohort of students who did not hand their coursework in (this was before lockdown- issues now are a whole new level)- despite the fact they new the submission dates far in advance and were reminded. As a result they didn’t have help with the drafts/planning either. When the inevitable happened (nothing to submit)- though hand in date was before submission date (to allow for various mishaps)- the students all had their own reasons why it hadn’t been done and parents all complained to the school. The school, rather than stand up to the parents, decided to make friend mark some (hastily done) essays at short notice. Many were poor, and that was also her fault according the most of the parents. If only she’d done a better job, their child would have a better mark for that piece of work. It was awful- what did those young people learn?

@NiceGerbil

The last thing I want to mention is resilience.

This word has been used a lot during covid. And hand wringing that people now don't have any. Often in conjunction with talking about the second world war.

In those days it was stuff upper lip. Mental health issues were not so well recognised. Of course people will have struggled. Ben depressed, anxious. Of course the propoganda at the time would have said chin up keep at it. And of course the picture painted of how well everyone coped would be presented after the event.

Of course the situation for people in those times was grim and scary and there was death all over the place. The idea then is that resilience comes through living through really bad times.

There was a big thread about resilience a while back and there were about 4 posters who said I am very resilient. I was one.

The 4 people agreed that going through pain and hurt and fear and hopelessness etc does something to you. It makes you rely on yourself. It makes you more immune to smaller issues.

But we all agreed that. How is it desirable that people have a terrible time, often as children, in order to obtain resilience?

What of the ones who don't make it through?

And what sort of awful things should we be exposing children/ young people to in order to instill this sense of. It's down to me, just keep going, don't complain because no one can help...

People who are resilient are often people who are damaged. That's not a good thing.

I am another resilient person and that resilience is a result of exactly the type of factors you mentioned. I wholeheartedly agree with what you have said.

Yes yanbu there do seem to be a lot of late developers nowadays. Plenty of people in their 30s still reliant on parents to provide accommodation or colleagues or even the general public to sort things out for them. Once we left the nest, mostly as late teens, we were on our own.
There is far too much bank of mum and dad and staying at home for too long.
They seem to be afraid of the big bad world.

Are you sure this isn’t the case because only the loudest voices are on social media? And a victim mentality always gets the most likes?
Most sensible people are too busy to post constantly.
I do agree that there’s a bit too much of a tendency to use mental health and explain things away because of someone’s background.
Just because I understand it doesn’t mean I have to put up with it. As @MyLittleOrangutan mentioned you find workarounds. My BF has autism and I have adhd (among other things) we do a lot behind the scenes to keep things running. Making lists, asking more questions , etc our bosses and colleagues are aware and put things in ways that we understand.
But there’s an assumption that if you have MH issues everyone else should accommodate you. Yes, to a CERTAIN EXTENT. Those people who use it as an excuse for bad behaviour ruin it for the rest of us!

Those saying resilient people have suffered failure and hardship - I don’t think that’s necessarily true.
Resilience also comes from parenting which is a bit hands off and having expectations.
For example, parents expecting good results at school, commitment to extracurricular, sorting things out with siblings and friends yourself, basically letting you navigate issues yourself, not hovering over you and coming to your rescue for minor things.
Letting you figure things out yourself. I suppose some mistakes may come with it but it doesn’t have to be failure and suffering.

I agree you to a point op. I've suffered with depression in the past and it was awful , but I sought help and thankfully I improved. I have periods of feeling low and low self esteem now but it's not as bad and I have learnt that you need to soldier on with it if you can which isn't easy for many with severe mental health problems I know. We're all different.
As for being resilient, this happened when I moved out at 24 and it was apparent that I was now married and had to get on with it! Our parents didn't do much to help us out , we really did have to learn and stand on our own two feet. Long time ago now and things have changed with parents more involved with their children and childcare. Our parents didn't want to know , we had to do it all ourselves. It made me grow up!

OP, you might find social psychologist Jonathan Haidt's work interesting. He and his colleagues have been conducting studies on exactly this.

Leaving this here in case you fancy a read:

www.thecoddling.com/

I think there's a lot of confusion between 'fault' and 'responsibility'.

Something may really not be your fault, not caused by you, or a failing in you or your behaviour, but still be your responsibility to deal with.
That's where imo, some of the issues lie because there's a recognition, more so with education around things, that certain things are not the fault of the individual, and that then leads to a mindset of 'As I'm not at fault, I'm also not responsible' and that's not really true.
Fault indicates someone is to blame, and I do think that there's an emerging blame culture too, that when something goes wrong, someone must 'pay'. Of course there are situations where someone is to blame, by act or omission and rightly so, held to account over that. But sometimes, there really isn't anyone at fault, yet we still seek to blame, or apportion the blame to the wrong quarter. Blame also invites judgement.
Of course, people are keen to avoid blame, to avoid being the one who 'pays' the one who is judged, and you are more and more seen as taking blame when taking responsibility for something. Therefore people shun responsibility as well as fault and blame.
Take being overweight and obese, there's likely people who take full responsibility for that, myself included, that my weight is to some degree under my control. However there are also outside factors that contribute towards it, that are outside of my control. The medical issue that I have, some medication that I've been on, the lack of mobility for a time, caused by an injury. Those contributing factors aren't my fault but that doesn't mean that my weight isn't my responsibility now, or that I should just sit back and refuse that responsibility because the factors that led me to where I am, aren't my fault.
There are also polarised opinions, some who will think that I don't have any responsibility towards my weight because the factors that led me here aren't my fault, and those who will dismiss those factors out of hand and insist that even with the factors at play, it's still all my fault. Where the truth lies somewhere in the middle, that yes, I am responsible for doing something about my weight, however the outside factors make that harder and make it slower to happen.

There is a drive to naturally seek the easiest means to any outcomes. One of them involves assigning blame to anyone but ourselves, because that demands less mental, psychological or physical effort whilst attracting sympathy.

How often do we read 'but it's not easy you know!' as to why someone is not tackling a problem as if the fact that something is not easy is enough of a reason to not do it in the first place.

In terms of resilience, for the sane reason, it is human nature to avoid any firm of change at all cost. We are lucky to live in a society that means increasing control over the avoidance of change. When it is suddenly falls on us though, it automatically triggers anxiety because it goes against what we've grown to see as safety and comfort.

@Maverickess, good post.

@Maverickess

I think there's a lot of confusion between 'fault' and 'responsibility'.

Something may really not be your fault, not caused by you, or a failing in you or your behaviour, but still be your responsibility to deal with.
That's where imo, some of the issues lie because there's a recognition, more so with education around things, that certain things are not the fault of the individual, and that then leads to a mindset of 'As I'm not at fault, I'm also not responsible' and that's not really true.
Fault indicates someone is to blame, and I do think that there's an emerging blame culture too, that when something goes wrong, someone must 'pay'. Of course there are situations where someone is to blame, by act or omission and rightly so, held to account over that. But sometimes, there really isn't anyone at fault, yet we still seek to blame, or apportion the blame to the wrong quarter. Blame also invites judgement.
Of course, people are keen to avoid blame, to avoid being the one who 'pays' the one who is judged, and you are more and more seen as taking blame when taking responsibility for something. Therefore people shun responsibility as well as fault and blame.
Take being overweight and obese, there's likely people who take full responsibility for that, myself included, that my weight is to some degree under my control. However there are also outside factors that contribute towards it, that are outside of my control. The medical issue that I have, some medication that I've been on, the lack of mobility for a time, caused by an injury. Those contributing factors aren't my fault but that doesn't mean that my weight isn't my responsibility now, or that I should just sit back and refuse that responsibility because the factors that led me to where I am, aren't my fault.
There are also polarised opinions, some who will think that I don't have any responsibility towards my weight because the factors that led me here aren't my fault, and those who will dismiss those factors out of hand and insist that even with the factors at play, it's still all my fault. Where the truth lies somewhere in the middle, that yes, I am responsible for doing something about my weight, however the outside factors make that harder and make it slower to happen.

That's actually a very good point. Lots to think about.

I also wonder how often rejecting the stigma or blame comes across or is interpreted as not taking any personal responsibility.

Not having prizes at kids sports days because if little Johnny does not win it might hurt his feelings.........alone stems from this kind of bullshit.

Kids need to learn you don't always win no matter how hard you fucking try. It's a fact of life.

Harsh but life is harsh.

I do often think about National Service and whether or not it should be a thing again. Maybe not just in the military but a disciplined time if service to our country could possibly make up for the fuck up we've done to our younger generations??

Ooops sorry I forgot....little Johnny couldn't possibly do something he's not chosen to in life because...... < insert valid reason here >

@MatHancockLovesMyTits

Not having prizes at kids sports days because if little Johnny does not win it might hurt his feelings.........alone stems from this kind of bullshit.

Kids need to learn you don't always win no matter how hard you fucking try. It's a fact of life.

Harsh but life is harsh.

I do often think about National Service and whether or not it should be a thing again. Maybe not just in the military but a disciplined time if service to our country could possibly make up for the fuck up we've done to our younger generations??

Ooops sorry I forgot....little Johnny couldn't possibly do something he's not chosen to in life because...... < insert valid reason here >

The older generations consider your generation to be fuck ups too. I bet you wouldn't enlist to some kind of National Service to prove them wrong or "fix" whatever they're moaning about would you?

Totslly agree re the older generations always thinking the next one is more fucked up.

I did join the army kind of out if choice but probably more due to my then perceived limited options at age 16. I really think it set me up for life with a more of a can do attitude that I may not have developed otherwise. It was certainly a good leveller and eye opener. This is why I wonder if some kind of national servicec ould be of benefit to many.

Many [young people] were so pampered nowadays that they had forgotten that there was such a thing as walking, and they made automatically for the buses… unless they did something, the future for walking was very poor indeed.”
Scottish Rights of Way: More Young People Should Use Them, Falkirk Herald, 1951

Whither are the manly vigour and athletic appearance of our forefathers flown? Can these be their legitimate heirs? Surely, no; a race of effeminate, self-admiring, emaciated fribbles can never have descended in a direct line from the heroes of Potiers and Agincourt...”
Letter in Town and Country magazine republished in Paris Fashion: A Cultural History, 1771

We defy anyone who goes about with his eyes open to deny that there is, as never before, an attitude on the part of young folk which is best described as grossly thoughtless, rude, and utterly selfish.”
The Conduct of Young People, Hull Daily Mail, 1925

They think they know everything, and are always quite sure about it.”
Rhetoric, Aristotle, 4th Century BC

It’s an irony, but so many of us are a cautious, nervous, conservative crew that some of the elders who five years ago feared that we might come trooping home full of foreign radical ideas are now afraid that the opposite might be too true, and that we could be lacking some of the old American gambling spirit and enterprise.”
The Care and Handling of a Heritage: One of the “scared-rabbit” generation reassures wild-eyed elders about future, Life, 1950

“[Young people] are high-minded because they have not yet been humbled by life, nor have they experienced the force of circumstances.”
Rhetoric, Aristotle, 4th Century BC

The beardless youth… does not foresee what is useful, squandering his money.”
Horace, 1st Century BC

“What really distinguishes this generation from those before it is that it's the first generation in American history to live so well and complain so bitterly about it.”
The Boring Twenties, Washington Post, 1993

Cinemas and motor cars were blamed for a flagging interest among young people in present-day politics by ex-Provost JK Rutherford… [He] said he had been told by people in different political parties that it was almost impossible to get an audience for political meetings. There were, of course, many distractions such as the cinema…”
Young People and Politics, Kirkintilloch Herald, 1938

“…in youth clubs were young people who would not take part in boxing, wrestling or similar exercises which did not appeal to them. The ‘tough guy’ of the films made some appeal but when it came to something that led to physical strain or risk they would not take it.”
Young People Who Spend Too Much, Dundee Evening Telegraph, 1945

Parents themselves were often the cause of many difficulties. They frequently failed in their obvious duty to teach self-control and discipline to their own children.”
Problems of Young People, Leeds Mercury, 1938

Probably there is no period in history in which young people have given such emphatic utterance to a tendency to reject that which is old and to wish for that which is new.”
Young People Drinking More, Portsmouth Evening News, 1936

You get the point. No matter what age you are ,an older generation belittled,mocked and gasped in horror at your lazy,entitled ,weak and snowflakey ways .

I'm sure you'd refute that. If they're wrong, what makes you so positively sure that you must be right?

@Wondermule

Well that’s turned my opinion around, I’m a changed woman, hooray

Well I didn't really expect it to as awful people tend not to think they're awful

Have RTFT and am somewhat on both sides of the coin to varying degrees.

One thing I do wonder is how personal responsibility is defined?

We are after all often encouraged to take responsibility for things in our lives that will affect other people too.

On a mundane level it may be an obese person trying to change things to facilitate health and weight loss but if it disrupts a family dynamic or current lifestyle and said person is constantly berated for being selfish by trying to do so by those around them, how do they resolve the conflict without damaging relationships?

Also I think there is a gender bias as women are often encouraged to be responsible for themselves and everyone around them which can inadvertently perpetuate the cycle. If a woman is overwhelmed to the point where she is last on the list and has to sacrifice something, chances are it will be her own self care and needs. So the adage "a womans place is in the wrong" may apply.

If all one has known is a constant barrage of "You're doing it wrong" without acknowledgement of environmental factors that contribute to lack of change, self loathing can drive one deeper into the hole.

If one has no experience of the perceived benefits of change, it is an unknown, and we have evolved to value and protect a status quo and fear can prevent us moving forward. Better the devil you know and all that.

And finally what about people who do take personal responsibility but are knocked back at every turn? It happens. At some point a "fuck it" mentality might set in, which I believe is a precursor to clinical depression.

I really don't think this is in any way a black and white issue, and there are way more than 50 shades of grey here.

This automatic anxiety thing also makes me cross.

I am not generally an anxious person. However after I had my first baby, I really did struggle (for a lot of reasons, hugely traumatic birth, medical issues with baby yadda yadda). Lots of these things meant that I couldn't (not because I was anxious because of things like medication schedules) take the baby out much. When baby was a year old everyone around me was bleating on about anxiety. Again I didn't think I was overly anxious, maybe a bit. I had good routines, I'm fairly introverted anyway and I was happy. I just wasn't doing much of what other people wanted me to do.

So off I went to the doctors anyway who asked me three bog standard questions, said I had post natal anxiety, offered me antidepressants (I declined) and they sent me off to a counsellor instead. Who listened to me for a couple of weeks and said 'I don't think you're suffering from post natal or clinical anxiety. I think you've had an incredibly stressful year, and you've had what is a normal stress response. You've battened down the hatches, done what you need to do and got through it. Well done. Just start getting out a bit more when you want to and come and see me again if you want to'.

I should add I did leave the house - I was fine on my own, or taking the baby to my MILs or for a walk etc. I just didn't want to go on big days out, weekends away or to social gatherings because it was far too stressful breaking routine and finding places to keep medication cool, etc etc etc. Turns out child actually is autistic, which explains a lot of her younger behaviour! The routine was right for her, essentially.

Five years later I still look back and think why were people so keen to stick an anxiety label on me when actually I wasn't anxious, I was just reacting normally to a difficult situation. We have forgotten I think, that to be anxious, frightened, worried, scared sometimes is normal.

My autistic child is anxious. I am trying hard even at five to teach her coping strategies to this, she cannot go through life saying 'no I'm too anxious' at every turn. She needs to learn to deal with it as best she can and move past it wherever possible. Gradual exposure and lots of patience works best for her.

I also pre children used to work with someone who applied for a job with me where a key part of the role was speaking to pissed off people, it was 80% of the job. She was successful, but failed her probation because she refused to speak to angry people because they made her anxious and gave her social anxiety. When I let her know she hadn't passed her probation she tried to tell me that I had to make a reasonable adjustment in that she should be allowed to only write to them instead. Erm, no! She also had no diagnosed disorder, she just didn't like it. Luckily HR agreed with me.

[quote Okbussitout]@Wondermule

Well that’s turned my opinion around, I’m a changed woman, hooray

Well I didn't really expect it to as awful people tend not to think they're awful[/quote]
Why comment then. I always think if a person feels confident in disputing an argument, they don’t have to rely on the ‘goady fucker’ ‘you sound delightful’ type stuff.

I confess I am amazed at the people I work with thinking that it's ok to be off work week after week due to . yes I know people get stressed, depressed, are prone to bronchitis, football injuries but I guess I (I'm sure some will say unreasonably) think that if you want to be paid you really should get your backside to work.

I know I'm a cynical bitch but I've seen much too often particular individuals who have had numerous (i.e. 7+) grandparents die so need compassion leave, witness friends murdered so go off with PTS etc endlessly. then when they come back to work ask for holiday time and when it can't be accommodated there's another family tragedy and they're off for another few weeks and are seen off partying down the beach.

I will confess i did take a day off after our cat died very suddenly. I'd spent the night sobbing and pretty much couldn't open my eyes the next morning. I'm sure someone at work thought it was all a lie too.

I confess I am amazed at the people I work with thinking that it's ok to be off work week after week due to . yes I know people get stressed, depressed, are prone to bronchitis, football injuries but I guess I (I'm sure some will say unreasonably) think that if you want to be paid you really should get your backside to work
I would rather my colleagues got properly better if they've been unwell, rather than drag themselves into work, working at limited capacity, and potentially making everyone else ill in the process.

If people are taking the piss then that's what attendance meetings are for, but nobody (in my opinion) should have to choose between their health and being able to pay the bills.

How can you tell the difference @LolaSmiles ?

That’s kind of the issue here. We are talking more about mental health than physical.

I agree there's some truth in this.

For the last year I've made some quite vocal comments when all we've heard is "kids won't be able ......"

If everyone assumes they can't they'll never learn to try. Where's the level of expectation?

I've also said the same about all the comments about their missed and failed education and never reaching full potential. Schools haven't closed for a year. They missed max 1 term and a few weeks. We should be telling our youngsters how well they've done through this, that they can achieve what they want by doing x y and z. That they made need to work some extra hours but when they've done that whilst locked down in freezing temperatures they'll have the summer to enjoy themselves.

I'm also a parent to a child with SEND and I have to walk away from groups sometimes because the expectation sometimes that everyone will do it for them is unreal.
And some families are left struggling in awful conditions with no support what so ever. Mostly because they are too worn down to shout loudest.