AIBU to think that lesbians deserve a dating app that caters exclusively to lesbians?

[Glinner]

Recently I opened an account with the app Her to bring attention to the many straight men invading lesbian dating apps by claiming a 'lesbian', 'queer' or 'trans' identity.

Given that lesbians are adult human females exclusively attracted to other adult human females, am I being unreasonable to believe that lesbians deserve spaces of their own, both online and in the real world?

[quote SqeakyHindge]@Linning agree. My adult daughter knows all that’s going on, more clued up on me and when ask or she tells me stuff never once does her knowledge come from man’s words.

@cascade31 To be honest am not interested in what good Glinner has done, I’ve seen the ugly side to how he has trashed women who haven’t toed the line.

Men should be speaking up but stepping aside, after all this is about women. I know also know that women get slated for not behaving in manner the supposed to. I’ve seen enough of that too. Yet men like Glinner get a free pass for behaving like a arsehole.

This again is classic example, women’s rights become about men who put themselves up as spokesperson instead of actual issue.

The men in my family will back and support women like decent men do, they don’t speak for them like some hero acting like they just saved them[/quote]
Exactly, I come from a place where many men stand up and speak up against sexism and other issues, they understand though that it is NOT their place to speak on behalf of women, or a group they aren’t a part of.

I will support a white person advocating for black people and the rights of POC no problem, but I won’t support a white person, talking for black people and dismissing the words and experience of black people because they don’t suit his/her agenda and they think their version is the most accurate version of what’s going on and the story that should be told and that POC need him to see the accurate conditions in which they live in and what they should or should not rebel against.

There is being an ally and there is mansplaining and being the male savior nobody asked for and who contributes to the problematic they actually denounce and pretend to be standing up against.

I actually don't mind in any way because he highlighted the problem very simply and clearly for everyone to see. The more of society become involved in the harms transgender ideology is impacting women and children. I really don't care if they are a man or a women. I don't see them as speaking for me, I see them as informing me and highlighting issues that may impact vulnerable women and children.

In the same week Jo Bartosch wrote an excellent piece highlighting this problem.

There are men and women in government and the civil service in the UK at the moment damaging women's rights.

Given that goverment and the civil service in the UK are still, on the whole, male dominated, I think that it is important that men as a make sex class are aware of the things that damage women as a female sex class.

It's surely improper to suggest that men can't talk publicly about the things that men do that damage women.

Also I find it quite insulting that glinner is seen as some important voice as so many amazing women out there with all walks of life making a difference.

Whilst men are being given platform to speak about women nothing is going to change.

Narh Glinner poked the bear with the stick and come running to mumsnet to hide behind, and who gets the shit for it? Mumsnetters not him!

He acted like an arsehole! And done it for himself as what I seen on s.m is about him and her app rather than actual point regarding: lesbians and her app.

I don’t speak for lesbians I do however support them.

@cascade31

I actually don't mind in any way because he highlighted the problem very simply and clearly for everyone to see. The more of society become involved in the harms transgender ideology is impacting women and children. I really don't care if they are a man or a women. I don't see them as speaking for me, I see them as informing me and highlighting issues that may impact vulnerable women and children.

In the same week Jo Bartosch wrote an excellent piece highlighting this problem.

Okay so for you:

Transwomen being on lesbian apps (despite the app clearly stating they are welcome and might be in that space) - bad because no one with a penis should be on a lesbian app and it’s threatening women and women safe spaces as it makes some lesbians uncomfortable even though many lesbians don’t mind and are supportive of trans people being their spaces.

Straight man joining a lesbian app, and talking on behalf of lesbians and over lesbians making them feel uncomfortable and finding it damaging- Excellent, very informative and we need more of him, love him!

Okay, sorry, I thought for a minute the point you were trying to make was that men shouldn’t make women/lesbian feel uncomfortable and invade lesbian/female spaces but the point you were actually trying to make was that men should be allowed to invade lesbian spaces and make them feel uncomfortable by taking over and speaking for and above them as long as they make you feel better informed and further confirms your personal agenda. My bad, I thought for a minute you genuinely cared about men not invading women spaces and lesbians being comfortable.

I guess if Glinner does a very good job and representing the lesbian community as an heterosexual man and shows you the situation exactly like it is (despite not being a woman nor a lesbian) then I am sure you don’t mind transwomen feeling they also represent lesbians. Don’t you? Or you are so biased you think straight men with a penis make good spokespeople for lesbians but not transwomen?

"Then why the fuck is it called "Her" rather than, say, "Folx" - the very name is false advertising."

Yup, agree.

Also I think people who write "folx" are nitwits who don't understand that the word "folks" is gender-neutral. (I don't mean you, nocoolnamesleft, obviously")

Also anyone that doesn't think that there's a problem with women being predated on and hassled by men, when they are looking solely to date other women, hasn't informed themselves.

Also I find it quite insulting that glinner is seen as some important voice as so many amazing women out there with all walks of life making a difference.

Whilst men are being given platform to speak about women nothing is going to change.

That’s one of looking at it, but in fairness he had the platform to begin with so why not use it?

There is plenty of room for everyone to do what they can where they can, but I perfectly understand why all of the people who have had legal run-ins over gender ideology (Maya F, Kate Scottow, Harry the Owl, Caroline Farrow etc) would maybe become particularly committed to the struggle.

“ That’s one of looking at it, but in fairness he had the platform to begin with so why not use it?”

He does keep needing to give himself boosts by starting threads on mn about his own doings...

Maybe FWR wasn’t driving enough traffic to his blog and that’s why he’s now trying it in AIBU as well.

Here he is again, starting a contentious thread that incidentally just happens to blow his own trumpet, then vanishing.

OPs who start a thread and then disappear are usually frowned upon in AIBU.

And monetised bloggers and journalists usually get short shrift from mnhq for continued self promotion.

This thread is fairly naked profiteering from @Glinner and I'm sorry to see so many falling for it.

Am glad that it has fostered discussion amongst actual lesbians on how they navigate online spaces.

I'd be very surprised if Graham returns. Whoever it was upthread who said he's making GC people look like wallies is right.

Agree Expectant.

He posted early in the thread to really lay it on. Anyone who disagrees with him on this is apparently homophobic....

“ What I'm asking is, should lesbians have a space of their own? I think they should. In fact, I think it's homophobic to suggest otherwise.”

That’s not how AIBU works Graham Linehan.

He’s been deleted before for starting threads leading to his own fundraisers and blog posts.

Maybe he thinks this one’s so subtle that people wouldn’t notice and it would slide past mnhq. At least he’s figured out not to post actual links now.

also not sure why this thread clearly started to stir up drama wasn’t removed?

Same - if it was "the other way round" (ie started from a trans point of view) it'd probably be taken down.
I'm on Twitter - (not in any trans rights capacity or anything) just as a boring randomer but saw the hashtags trending the other day.
Basically from what I can glean, a lesbian dating app has advertised that they are inclusive to all women (eg they're trans inclusive.)
Which is their right.
Then someone who isn't trans (fully aware probably going to get some wag telling me "how do you know he isn't?!" now but meh whatever
It just seems like whipping up hostility towards trans people, and yes, basically like trolling them.

Top line should have bolded as was quoting

"Then why the fuck is it called "Her" rather than, say, "Folx" - the very name is false advertising."

Yup, agree.

Yes, this is the heart of the matter.

I am a lesbian. Thankfully, I have always been able to decide who I had sex with and opted not to have sex with people with penises, because I didn’t (and don’t) want to. I have managed to navigate OLD for quite some time without accidentally having sex with somebody with a penis - because I have complete autonomy over who I swiped on, who I met, and who I went to bed with. I don’t need a man or any straight (or gay) women to help me ensure I don’t have (consensual) sex with a penis.

After a nasty split, I spent a brief time contemplating if I could go straight (ridiculous if you knew me, but you live and learn). I briefly joined a general OLD site and marked myself as straight. I was sent all sorts of dick pics and filthy messages by straight men, unprovoked (unless you count being a women on a dating site as provocation, I’m sure there are men who do). My experience being a woman on a straight site was far far far more unpleasant than it ever has been on a site where I have marked myself as a lesbian. But nobody seems to really care about that experience. I wonder why?

I was out on the gay London scene in the 00s. Totally agree with the pp that the lack of lesbian only spaces, apps etc is because they aren’t sustainable. Most of the best lesbian bars in and around Soho in the 00s closed down because they weren’t profitable. Many gay women stop going out on the scene much once the settle down. There are far less random hook ups on the lesbian scene. So these spaces have to be inclusive to survive. Even back then we all moaned about places closing down, but we still stayed home many Saturdays and watched TV, leading to the decline!

I do think there are some genuine points of issue around the erosion of women’s rights at the moment (safe spaces, prisons, sport), but honestly who can access a dating app really isn’t something for people to get worked up about, and it undermines the important discussion. Men and straight women shouldn’t be telling lesbians that they should get worked up about it when they don’t care. It’s patronising. Don’t like the app? Don’t use it. Want a different app? Create it.

(Most of my lesbian friends use Bumble and are perfectly happy with it!)

Not very inclusive is it? If it excludes an actual lesbian who only wants to date actual women. 'Inclusive' is another one of those words whose meaning has been turned on it's head. When are some scrotum people going to realise that lesbians don't date men? Why are gonad people trying to force themselves on women that don't fancy men?

This. Love "scrotum people" and "gonad people", if we are supposed to accept "menstruators" and "uterus havers",

Why does folks get changed to folx?

Folks is already gender neutral, I thought?

Men and straight women shouldn’t be telling lesbians that they should get worked up about it when they don’t care.

What about the lesbians who do?

I'm not telling anyone what they should get worked up about, just supporting my friends. And you can pull rank however much you want, but the word "lesbian" has a specific meaning which many lesbians aren't comfortable being eroded. Just like many women are happy to say "I don't care if males identify as women, I'm cool with it, #bekind". I don't agree, as a woman.

Not very inclusive is it? If it excludes an actual lesbian who only wants to date actual women

How does it though?
Surely you can just choose to match with who you want?
So if anyone who is trans pops up as a possible match, just don't contact if you wish?
Whereas others still happily can.
You can still choose who you want to date.
Unless you feel the need to be like "no, cos, ew, trans" or something, like why would you even say things like that out loud on your profile even if you thought it?
That's just being an arsehole if so.

@Shamoo

I am a lesbian. Thankfully, I have always been able to decide who I had sex with and opted not to have sex with people with penises, because I didn’t (and don’t) want to. I have managed to navigate OLD for quite some time without accidentally having sex with somebody with a penis - because I have complete autonomy over who I swiped on, who I met, and who I went to bed with. I don’t need a man or any straight (or gay) women to help me ensure I don’t have (consensual) sex with a penis.

After a nasty split, I spent a brief time contemplating if I could go straight (ridiculous if you knew me, but you live and learn). I briefly joined a general OLD site and marked myself as straight. I was sent all sorts of dick pics and filthy messages by straight men, unprovoked (unless you count being a women on a dating site as provocation, I’m sure there are men who do). My experience being a woman on a straight site was far far far more unpleasant than it ever has been on a site where I have marked myself as a lesbian. But nobody seems to really care about that experience. I wonder why?

I was out on the gay London scene in the 00s. Totally agree with the pp that the lack of lesbian only spaces, apps etc is because they aren’t sustainable. Most of the best lesbian bars in and around Soho in the 00s closed down because they weren’t profitable. Many gay women stop going out on the scene much once the settle down. There are far less random hook ups on the lesbian scene. So these spaces have to be inclusive to survive. Even back then we all moaned about places closing down, but we still stayed home many Saturdays and watched TV, leading to the decline!

I do think there are some genuine points of issue around the erosion of women’s rights at the moment (safe spaces, prisons, sport), but honestly who can access a dating app really isn’t something for people to get worked up about, and it undermines the important discussion. Men and straight women shouldn’t be telling lesbians that they should get worked up about it when they don’t care. It’s patronising. Don’t like the app? Don’t use it. Want a different app? Create it.

(Most of my lesbian friends use Bumble and are perfectly happy with it!)

Exactly, THANK YOU!

I have NEVER received a dick pick from a Trans-woman nor a rude or sexualized message from any of them on any of the “lesbian apps” I have been on. Never. In fact I haven’t received an inappropriate pic or been touched inappropriately by a trans woman ever (though I have by some fellow queer female-born women!) yet I have had plenty of dick pics and gross messages both on dating apps and social media, when I created an account as straight (age 18!).

I have sometimes double swapped and matched with trans women and actually have some lovely discussions on some fascinating topics, and never once did they sexualize me. When that happens and we match they will usually say “hey did you read my profile? Just wanted to make sure you are okay with me being trans.” And sure enough 99.9% of transwomen on lesbian dating apps state clearly that they are trans on their profile and therefore aren’t even trying to be deceiving.
All the transwomen I have mistakenly matched with have been brilliant at accepting my mistake and me stating, I don’t date individuals with a penis and not taking it personally.

Yet we have a man coming here to debate over how threatening transwomen are to lesbians in dating apps, talking for us when straight dating apps is the most mysogenistic and unsafe place to be online as a woman due to all the male-identifying men, present on them. I have never felt uncomfortable on a lesbian app despite the presence of transwomen, I for sure feel uncomfortable on the straight side of the dating app though. I wonder why Glinner is more concern with keeping lesbians safe (despite them being MUCH safer than straight dating apps) instead of denouncing the horrors happening to straight women on dating apps by straight men like HIM.

More convenient to throw rocks at groups you don’t belong in than clean up at your own door I suppose.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

Men and straight women shouldn’t be telling lesbians that they should get worked up about it when they don’t care.

What about the lesbians who do?

The lesbians who do can speak for themselves and don’t need men or straight women to speak for them or act as if they know what being a lesbian is like.

Let lesbians speak for themselves.

That’s the point.

I don’t need a straight-woman telling me how to feel in my own space or telling me she feels sorry for me because I chose not to emphasize the fact that I don’t date people with a penis on my profile. I also don’t need men to be the spokesperson for me and act is if they have the most remote idea what it’s like to be a lesbian and need them to speak up on my behalf.

Lesbians can speak up for themselves. We don’t need people outside of the community telling us how to feel, what to say or what to think.

I am more than happy to listen to a lesbian who has concerns about trans people in lesbian spaces and what we, as a community can do so they feel comfortable. But I have no interest in hearing what straight or men think of it, and have them use us as a prop for their agenda or feel-good moment.

@Ereshkigalangcleg my message wasn’t aimed at you, I haven’t paid any attention to who has said what on here in terms of username, and so I don’t know what you have said. So if you aren’t trying to (explicitly or implicitly) tell lesbians how to feel, then that’s totally fine. But there are plenty of people in the wider conversation on these matters who are.

I’m sorry your friend is upset about Her. And of course her feelings are valid. I must say, given that the app is completely clear that it isn’t only for lesbians (100% clear before you even download it) I am unclear as to why she is upset that there are a wider group of people than lesbians on there. But obviously I’ve not had her experience on it, and I wouldn’t try to second guess what has happened or why she is upset. I do know there may well be an issue with men who don’t genuinely identify as queer or trans on there, but I don’t personally think that that is very different to the “bi-curious couples” and straight men who message lesbians on all dating sites that I have ever been on (where I clearly identify as gay), or the straight men who send dick pics and disgusting messages unsolicited to women on predominantly straight sites. Some people are vile, and will use any Avenue they can to exploit it. But that’s a whole other can of worms that probably isn’t for this discussion.

The lesbians who do can speak for themselves and don’t need men or straight women to speak for them or act as if they know what being a lesbian is like.

Do you not believe that people should be allies? I'm not pretending to know what being a lesbian is like, just saying it is a word with a specific meaning in common use, just like "woman" is. And my lesbian friends dislike people taking it upon themselves to decide that male people can be considered women, or lesbian. I stand with them as a woman who also doesn't believe males can be women, and against all colonisation of women's spaces.

And you, Linning, have said that you won't consider dating an MTF trans person, so you are in agreement with the lesbian women I know up to a point. They analyse it as oppressive, not preference, so maybe go further than you in wanting male people out of lesbian spaces completely.