AIBU to think that lesbians deserve a dating app that caters exclusively to lesbians?

[Glinner]

Recently I opened an account with the app Her to bring attention to the many straight men invading lesbian dating apps by claiming a 'lesbian', 'queer' or 'trans' identity.

Given that lesbians are adult human females exclusively attracted to other adult human females, am I being unreasonable to believe that lesbians deserve spaces of their own, both online and in the real world?

@Mockolate

Don't think he is speaking over any body

He's talking over actual lesbians though, who have said they don't mind.

He joined an app and highlighted something a bit ridiculous he thinks is wrong
Yes, by saying he's a lesbian just to prove a point and seemingly troll trans people.

He’s not though. Some lesbians might ok with with it - that’s no problem.

Many lesbians are not ok with it. Consent is not transferable. Some lesbians being happy to consider male people does not mean that all lesbians should not have the right to exclude all male people from their dating circle.

I don’t imagine that the biggest problem for lesbians is that the self identified lesbians are allowed on these sites, it is that the lesbians are preventing from stating their preference clearly and thrown off the site for specifying women only. Or their search for women only throws up hundreds of non female people and they have to wade through to try and find the women - it kind of defeats the object of the site.

You may have noticed that it is quite difficult for many women to speak out about this and Glinner has used his considerable platform to help amplify out voices at huge personal cost.

If you don’t agree with his approach that’s fine but many of us value his support enormously.

Why has this thread about lesbians and how lesbians feels in their own spaces

Linning, this thread is in AIBU, where you can expect input from lots of different people. The definition of lesbian hangs on the definition of woman, or of female sex, which is in dispute here. Other people will have their say where a group is trying to play down female erasure. Which is why I asked you if you think the definition of lesbian should be changed so both parties being female is no longer required.

If so, you have a right to your opinion, but I disagree with it, and I neither require your permission to disagree with it or to post on a thread about it.

Basically, if I self identified as a lesbian because I had a relationship as a straight woman with an MTF trans person my opinion would be valid, despite their being no material difference. If my male DP wakes up now and says "do you know Eresh, I think I might be a woman", I will now be a lesbian and my view on this subject will be equally valid as yours on it. Do you see the issue, and the point I am trying to make?

If we now decide that men who identify as women can also now identify as lesbians and then this must be so. We used to call these biological men heterosexual men.

What's next for language? If we now must all except that this is the case, and language has now new meaning and lines and boundaries have been blurred.

In a few years time can some men and women identify as children? Would this now be acceptable? Language is important.

A lesbian is an adult human female who is sexual attracted to another adult human female.

This. If some lesbians think that "lesbian" doesn't simply mean "female same sex attraction", then that's fine, but clearly a new word would be needed for female same sex attraction. It's disingenuous to pretend this is not about that.

YANBU of course.

Particularly liking the remarkably unlesbian head tilt you've got going on there, Graham.

More power to your elbow, Glinner. I have enormous respect for you and your willingness to put your head above the parapet.

“ Many lesbians are not ok with it. Consent is not transferable “

It’s an app, that you actively sign up for.

To join, you need to agree to their terms and conditions.

If you don’t like their stated ethos and user-base choices, then don’t join.

If you can’t abide by their t&c then don’t join.

No one is forcing anyone to join the app service.

Every individual who signs up and uses the service explicitly consents to the t&c.

HER is being attacked by a famous bloke who doesn’t like their choices about the service they offer.

And he’s here on mn, again, promoting his crusade, stirring up anti trans posts, and then disappearing.

If you want to cheerlead him and his activism, that’s up to you.

But painting HER as in any way failing to get consent for their service is totally out of order.

lesbianandgaynews.com/2021/02/lesbian-women-talk-about-meeting-transbians-on-women-only-dating-sites/

A really good article here about lesbians trying to use dating apps.

Gay men also have their own issues when using dating apps and stating they want men-only responses.

Whether males are on these "lesbian" dating sites or not, women should not be penalised for trying to filter them out. This is potentially illegal discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation under the EA 2010.

And same goes for gay men.

It's only "anti trans sentiment" if you think that the bearded, masculine individuals on HER are transwomen and actual lesbians, surely?

@Mockolate

Not very inclusive is it? If it excludes an actual lesbian who only wants to date actual women

How does it though?
Surely you can just choose to match with who you want?
So if anyone who is trans pops up as a possible match, just don't contact if you wish?
Whereas others still happily can.
You can still choose who you want to date.
Unless you feel the need to be like "no, cos, ew, trans" or something, like why would you even say things like that out loud on your profile even if you thought it?
That's just being an arsehole if so.

Agree with this, and pretty much all the messages by Linning and Shamoo

Trans rights activists do not allow women to have lesbian-only spaces without violent threats. This is the bigger issue here. Access for 'lesbians with penises' is demanded.

Anyone who thinks the term 'T*rf' is reserved for actual transphobia and not 'any woman who disagrees slightly with any aspect of transgender ideology, or refers to "women's health" etc' is deluded, btw.

@notyourhandmaid

Trans rights activists do not allow women to have lesbian-only spaces without violent threats. This is the bigger issue here. Access for 'lesbians with penises' is demanded.

Anyone who thinks the term 'T*rf' is reserved for actual transphobia and not 'any woman who disagrees slightly with any aspect of transgender ideology, or refers to "women's health" etc' is deluded, btw.

Well no, this is not the bigger issue, this is a straw man.

The issue was very specific, about lesbians 'deserving' a very exclusive app (regardless of whether most lesbians would want that) and the un/reasonableness of a straight man's very specific, very transphobic actions to enforce his view on the issue.

Pulling 'wider issue' out of the hat where there is no relevance is, in fact, transphobic - it judges all matters pertaining to trans individuals and how they fit into other contexts by some extreme cases. All members of the minority group are made responsible for any bad behaviour by anyone in that group. You don't see a problem with that?

Glinner is parodying a very specific type of "transwoman" though. He looks no different to many of the ones that use the HER app. If anyone can tell me how we distinguish between the Glinners and the others that look exactly like his profiles, I'd be much obliged.

about lesbians 'deserving' a very exclusive app

How is a dating app just for women who are sex attracted "very exclusive"? why is an app that isn't just for women called "Her"? It's disingenuous.

And if it is for all comers, OP is fine to post on it.

Glinner is parodying a very specific type of "transwoman" though. He looks no different to many of the ones that use the HER app.

Indeed.

People crying transphobia should first define 'trans'. You're accusing people of bigotry when none of it is based on material reality.

Of course women (actual females) deserve a dating app just to meet other women. But look what happened to Sall Grover, she is hounded on twitter. What do you people crying' transphobia' have to say about that?

I'm afraid I can no longer take the word 'transphobic' seriously, seeing as it is applied to innocuous statements like 'biology matters' or 'sex is real'.

The question being posed, by the way, is not 'do you condone this particular action as a way of drawing attention to this issue?'

I see lady gaga was accused of being transphobic because she put up a reward for her dogs to be returned.

No, me neither...

@Linning - you are brilliant, and thank you for everything you have said on here.

It’s clear that there are people on here who have no interest actually debating and learning from what others are sharing. They, as straight women (and men), wish to tell lesbians how they should feel. When lesbians clearly point out various conflicting opinions and facts, or challenge other issues which are ignored, there is no meaningful engagement on those points. Just more responses trying to tell us we are wrong.

The irony is astounding. Don’t let trans people take lesbian spaces, but don’t worry about straight people doing it! And, as Linning says, suggests a complete lack of awareness. Or perhaps complete awareness but a very strong agenda that they are happy to push in “support” of a lesbian community where plenty of those lesbians say they have no issue with the situation.

As a reminder for the people who have arrived on this thread this morning and I assume haven’t bothered to read the whole thread from what they are typing; the app in question is totally clear that it is not for lesbians only. Completely clear. If you feel that lesbians deserve a dating app just for them, create it. I’m sure that you, unlike the many who have come before you, will find a way to make it sustainable in the lesbian community. If you could also turn your attention to dealing with the dating sites and apps that have caused me far far more issues over the years (dick picks, vile emails and texts) that have absolutely zero to do with the trans or queer community, I would actually really appreciate that.

I see lady gaga was accused of being transphobic because she put up a reward for her dogs to be returned.

Eh?

Or perhaps complete awareness but a very strong agenda that they are happy to push in “support” of a lesbian community where plenty of those lesbians say they have no issue with the situation.

And plenty do. Don't pretend this is all coming from outside the LGBT sphere. It's dishonest. Or that most trans inclusive women aren't perfectly happy for their male friends of all gender identities to talk over GC women about women's rights.

The irony is astounding. Don’t let trans people take lesbian spaces, but don’t worry about straight people doing it!

Oh my goodness you really are not getting it, are you?

*Well no, this is not the bigger issue, this is a straw man.

The issue was very specific, about lesbians 'deserving' a very exclusive app (regardless of whether most lesbians would want that) and the un/reasonableness of a straight man's very specific, very transphobic actions to enforce his view on the issue.

Pulling 'wider issue' out of the hat where there is no relevance is, in fact, transphobic - it judges all matters pertaining to trans individuals and how they fit into other contexts by some extreme cases. All members of the minority group are made responsible for any bad behaviour by anyone in that group. You don't see a problem with that?*

And neither are you. Plus I'm not sure about your definition of "strawman".

Why don't you think lesbians "deserve" to have an exclusive space, incidentally.

Yes, it is a wider issue. There is no gatekeeping. A woman is anyone who says they are. They don't have to make any changes to themselves in order to access women's spaces. On a dating app, it's an annoyance. In meat space it's worse (women's prisons, sports, changing rooms, etc).

The founder of Giggle gets hounded for being a transphobe just as women who object to any of the other examples do. Women can't have anything to themselves. It absolutely IS part of a wider issue.

It is reasonable for lesbians who sign up for a dating app called 'Her' for "lesbian, bisexual and queer people" to expect that they will not
a) have to specify that they don't do dick
b) be penalised for saying they don't do dick

It is reasonable to assume that something marketed as women does not encourage and pander to dick.

It is not reasonable to believe that lesbians should understand now - because it is a recent development - that 'lesbian' has been appropriated by the dick-owners and that 'trans' no longer means 'transsexual' but 'anyone who feels like it even some of the time'.

If you're very young perhaps you don't realise how recent these developments are, and need to do some research on the history of gay rights, as well as the vile associations with expecting lesbians to make themselves sexually available to male-bodied people.