Shamima Begum cannot return.....

[Lillylolo]

What are your opinions?

I feel that her dual heritage has been used against her, to push her towards Bangladesh.

However, I do feel she is a threat to the general public and it would be incredibly difficult to control/monitor her actions. Which may put the rest of the population at risk.

This is just an open debate. Let’s try not to rip each other apart, more of a healthy debate

[quote GalaxyGirl24]@SpaceRaiders Completely agree with your statements. You can be sure that if she was white there'd be no question of her being a British Citizen and needing to face justice here, and be recognised as Britain's problem to deal with.

She is a threat, as are many people who are in the justice system and being dealt with as they are our responsibility. [/quote]
Just like Jack Letts.

She was a 15 year old girl who was groomed and then couldn’t escape from the horrific situation she was lured into. She was failed by those who should have protected her. She was just a child.

Did she want to escape? She appears to have been quite active there and she spoke about her time in Syria without any remorse.

I agree though, she is our problem as well.

@DaisiesandButtercups she wasn't groomed. She was radicalised. She - at her own free will - fled the UK to join a terrorist organisation.
She wasn't taken at gunpoint. She wasn't forced against her will. She wasn't blackmailed or smuggled. She chose to go.

I for one am very glad this scumbag will not be returning to British soil.

she wasn't groomed. She was radicalised. She - at her own free will - fled the UK to join a terrorist organisation
She wasn't taken at gunpoint. She wasn't forced against her will. She wasn't blackmailed or smuggled. She chose to go

You do not understand the process of radicalisation, which is very similar to grooming.

I’ll repeat what I said earlier:

7 girls in total were questioned by the uk police. Their parents were not informed, but the girls were given a letter to take home. 3 of the girls ran - one of them Begum. The other 4 were then made wards of court to protect them from the effects of radicalisation.

For those who suggest she didn’t want to escape, if that were true then Stockholm syndrome must be considered. She really had no option to escape however and coercive control was likely a feature of her experience.

She was a child victim of radicalisation and sexual abuse. She was groomed and lured to a foreign country in order to be a brood mare and a sex slave for a male fighter.

The victim blaming is off the scale here.

As SmileEachDay demonstrates Shamima was failed by the UK system.

As ChardonnaysPetDragon says she is a UK “problem”.

It was an immoral act to strip her citizenship. Her situation is a failure of the UK in child protection, prevention of radicalisation of UK citizens and also in passport checking.

The victim blaming is off the scale here

So is the bleeding heart liberal apologism.

The thing is we don't have to consider anything else. The Supreme Court is happy the discretion has been exercised correctly here with the balance in terms of public safety of the 70m in the UK.

Also the way people have blamed others for what were her own choices or the family. It was not the school which made her go there. It was not a failure to send a letter home. We should try to encourage more people in the UK to take personal responsibility. Also this case and the other similar 149 cases or whatever the numbers is could be a very good way to keep the 70m here safe as could make people think twice before going off to join a terrorist organisation that cuts off heads, trains your children to kill others, push gays off buildings and all the rest.

There were a lot of immoral acts of ISIS and the Begum case is as nothing compared to much of that. Let us lobby to send more funds to help yazidi girls rather than spent British tax payers' money on helping terrorists.

So is the bleeding heart liberal apologism

You’re very dismissive of anyone who doesn’t comply with immediate condemnation with zero critical thinking.

@SmileEachDay

So is the bleeding heart liberal apologism

You’re very dismissive of anyone who doesn’t comply with immediate condemnation with zero critical thinking.

You’re equally dismissive of anyone who applies critical thinking to their assessment of Begum’s own testimony. 🤷‍♀️

You’re equally dismissive of anyone who applies critical thinking to their assessment of Begum’s own testimony

I’ve not seen you apply any critical thinking to her testimony. Some posters have done and have wondered if maybe she is traumatised and in a hugely dangerous situation.

Xenia I agree we should be lobbying to help the cause of the Yazidi women and girls. They have been subject to appalling acts of violence. You’re too clever a poster to think that it’s impossible to think this whilst also having significant concerns about both the failure to safeguard and the removal of citizenship in this case?

As ChardonnaysPetDragon says she is a UK “problem”.

You don't agree she is a problem?

I’ve not seen you apply any critical thinking to her testimony. Some posters have done and have wondered if maybe she is traumatised and in a hugely dangerous situation

In other words the only people applying critical thinking are those who agree with you - other than “clever” Xenia.

I just haven’t seen it from you, Vinyl - maybe I missed it?

I have huge problem with the criminals being deported out of the country they actually became a criminal in.

It’s like saying ‘we did not take care of our house and now that stuff has got rot, we need to Chuck it to your house. I wouldn’t apologise cos it’s my right as the big bro’.
Fuck off and try to think why Asia and Mid East think our ‘foreign policy’ is actually terrorism.

There has certainly been a lack of critical thinking skills. I have dealt with radicalisation. Trusted figures in a child’s life are able to exert their influence. Growing up with this, the child has little chance to develop other views.
To apply it to ‘ Isis fangirls’ who fully aware of the atrocities being carried out, sought out likeminded individuals is an attempt to try to remove individual responsibility. It implies it was done to them and they had no agency. Woolly, liberal thinking at its best and certainly not critical thinking.
I’m impressed by your attempt to put words in a poster’s mouth @SmileEachDay You’re too clever to think..... That did make me smile.

Shamima is a human being, her situation is certainly a problem.

The approach of repatriation and countries of origin taking responsibility for their citizens is the one I support. As a pp mentioned what will become of all these radicalised, stateless traumatised people? Are we safer if they are repatriated and attempts are made to deradicalise them or if we leave them to their own devices wandering in some hinterland where they can be recruited for the next drive?

So is the bleeding heart liberal apologism yawn what a tired ol trope
It’s a tick list of tired sad clichés to stifle discussion

You’ll be saying woke next

It’s a tick list of tired sad clichés to stifle discussion

There seems to have been plenty of discussion - I haven’t noticed any stifling.
If anything you are trying to stifle discussion.

Just a thought, but on the claims of "she's never set foot in Bangladesh", has this been proved either? Or is it like the three babies she's said to have birthed and lost - a question of chuck in the claim and hope it sticks?

I'll gladly take the second one back if anyone can offer any evidence of the children, but since this has been asked repeatedly and roundly ignored it seems safe to believe they can't

Hrtwt.

Might seem harsh but I believe the ruling was the right choice. I don’t trust that she is or can be a reformed character. Extremists a very real threat to national security.

There should be a facility to keep her and others detained but not on this soil, unfortunately she would be out in a few years on good behaviour and apparently prisons can be hot beds for radicalisation anyway.

What about the thousands of good, decent people in the U.K. who follow the Muslim faith but face possible discrimination because these extremists are allowed to walk among us.

I can’t get past the decapticated heads in bins, she felt nothing for those people. Does anyone remember Samantha Lewthwaite? Her husband was involved in July 7th bombings, at the time I remember her claiming innocence, she knew nothing of her husbands radicalisation... they now call her the white widow, last I heard she was on the run after masterminding other terrorist attacks. She was complicit and hoodwinked the authorities.

What about the thousands of good, decent people in the U.K. who follow the Muslim faith but face possible discrimination because these extremists are allowed to walk among us

Exactly this. It’s a shame that this thread seems - and I may have missed it - to lack a Muslim perspective. I’d be genuinely interested to see Muslim women’s take on this.

I’d be genuinely interested to see Muslim women’s take on this

How do you know that some of the posters on here aren’t? Lots of people really hate that posting style of “I’m a.....(descriptor) and I think...”

@SmileEachDay

I’d be genuinely interested to see Muslim women’s take on this

How do you know that some of the posters on here aren’t? Lots of people really hate that posting style of “I’m a.....(descriptor) and I think...”

I don’t know obviously. Are you going to pick holes in everything I say? Because it’s going to be a very boring thread for everyone else if you are.

I support the Supreme Court's decision which is based on the law.
If we want to change the law that is up to Parliament.

We have chosen to protect 70m in the UK rather than Mrs Yago Riedijk (if we give her her married name) as wife of the imprisoned Dutchman. I presume we recognise Islamic marriages abroad in the UK but it is a long time since I studied family law. Incidentally i was taught it by what was to become our most senior female judge then Brenda Hoggett and she became Lady Hale. the first female member of the Supreme Court. She certainly made it a very interesting topic.... pause to check... I see Holland decided not to recognise her marriage as she was 15 when it took place abroad.

Interesting "In order for foreign marriages to be recognised as legal in the UK, the following conditions must be met: The marriage must be recognised as a legal marriage in the country in which it took place and the parties to the marriage must have complied with the procedures required in the country of marriage." So if you get married in accordance with the Koran in Syria that is probably a valid marriage. In Scotland eg you need to be 16 to be validly married. Some countries have a lower age.

So the UK might recognise her marriage not that she will ever be allowed to come here but Holland has not but Syria does I suspect and probably Bangladesh would.

On the question of the 3 babies she certainly had the last one as we saw it in her arms in the camp and sadly it died. I see no reason to suppose she didn't have the first 2 either as presumably she was fairly young, fertile and probably contraception was against their rules as they wanted to breed a lot of new young soldiers for the caliphate.