Shamima Begum cannot return.....

[Lillylolo]

What are your opinions?

I feel that her dual heritage has been used against her, to push her towards Bangladesh.

However, I do feel she is a threat to the general public and it would be incredibly difficult to control/monitor her actions. Which may put the rest of the population at risk.

This is just an open debate. Let’s try not to rip each other apart, more of a healthy debate

@Belladonna12
Exactly

You seem to not understand the difference between being the victim of sexual assault and being the perpetrator of abuse .
The Rochdale girls were not committing a crime. Begum clearly was

I absolutely do understand. What you are misunderstanding is that the part before this - before girls who are victims of CSE start being abused and before victims of radicalisation star committing crimes - is very, very similar. The outcomes are different. But the grooming and radicalisation process is really very much the same.

You could use this forum as a means to educate us all @Thewithesarehere as to how a retired schoolteacher living in Lyme Regis (for example) has been involved in the creation of terrorism? Or is it a private group like the Mason's who are behind it? Or Marks & Spencer plc?

And when she does that, that will create yet another circle of crime and terror where a traumatised Syrian child who saw his/her family getting massacred at the hand of a British terrorist would make a vow to avenge that death.

I still don’t get why our lives are more important than other people around the world.

@NoMackerelInSwindon

You could use this forum as a means to educate us all *@Thewithesarehere* as to how a retired schoolteacher living in Lyme Regis (for example) has been involved in the creation of terrorism? Or is it a private group like the Mason's who are behind it? Or Marks & Spencer plc?

You can laugh all you like because you likely haven’t lost anyone to terrorism. Start a thread on it and we can do that discussion.

But first resolve this: how will you feel if other countries started to dump their terrorists in hundred upon us becuase U.K. set a precedent?

@SmileEachDay

If a boy joined a gang in the UK at the age of 15 and then killed someone at the age of 17 would you insist that they were innocent because they joined the gang at the age of 15?

If they were groomed into the gang - as often happens with County Lines/criminal exploitation- then I’d certainly argue they were potentially innocent when the grooming process started, and were too far into it to get out when the serious exploitation started.

So if they stabbed and murdered a child, you would argue they were innocent and shouldn't be punished because they were part of a gang and had joined at the age of 15? Thank god you're not in charge.

@SmileEachDay
I’m not sure where you received your training but no it is not the same. If any of the Rochdale girls had gone on to commit serious offences, they too would have been held responsible for their crimes if over the age of criminal responsibility. They didn’t though and that is where your comparison is offensive.

But first resolve this: how will you feel if other countries started to dump their terrorists in hundred upon us becuase U.K. set a precedent?

The precedent that people who commit crimes are punished in the country where they committed the crime is already set. If someone from Syria committed a crime here we would put them in prison here.

Yes that’s right isn’t it? And some get deported, and some don’t.

Bella
Read what I wrote again. Innocent when the grooming began.

That is totally separate to how crime should be punished. Of course violent crime should be punished - I think the knowledge of a perpetrator being groomed/radicalised is helpful to any future rehabilitation though, wouldn’t you agree?

Blackberrycream

Read my post at 18.28

@Belladonna12

But first resolve this: how will you feel if other countries started to dump their terrorists in hundred upon us becuase U.K. set a precedent?

The precedent that people who commit crimes are punished in the country where they committed the crime is already set. If someone from Syria committed a crime here we would put them in prison here.

And Syria has a system that can let hundreds slip through their net? Does Syria has system at all?

The supreme court judgment is purely about one issue - should we somehow get her back here presumably at tax payer expense to continue her litigation or is that unsafe. It has been found to be unsafe. I support the court's decision. If I were stuck in jail in Iran or Brazil the UK would not be funding a rescue to get me home despite my having only one passport and having paid income tax working full time without a break since 1983. So I am sure why would think it fair to spend tax payers' money . Also if we have spare money let us spend it on the yazidi girls who were raped and killed out there by Begum's Isis friends.

Separately she is entitled the Bangladeshi passport www.ejiltalk.org/shamima-begum-may-be-a-bangladeshi-citizen-after-all/ and thus it was lawful to withdraw her british one. If she ever gets out from where she is in Syria perhaps her father who lives in Bangladesh could help her to settle there.

I think I read that Bangladesh has the death penalty for such crimes so she would be very unlikely to even try to go there.

Also, terrorism is not your run of the mill crime. There is a reason it is called terrorism: it’s mass killing or aiming to kill.

So the responsibility of the countries that let the perpetrators go or reach this point of no return is also higher.
I am happy that Biden has said he accepts that all US terrorists should be brought back and sentenced there as they got radicalised there.

@SmileEachDay

Blackberrycream

Read my post at 18.28

I did read. The different outcomes are the point. We are expected to have a moral compass and take responsibility for our actions past a certain age.

@SmileEachDay

Bella Read what I wrote again. Innocent when the grooming began.

That is totally separate to how crime should be punished. Of course violent crime should be punished - I think the knowledge of a perpetrator being groomed/radicalised is helpful to any future rehabilitation though, wouldn’t you agree?

You don't have any knowledge about the perpetrator being groomed or radicalised though. It's just something you seem to assume if that person is 15.

I agree, Blackberry. I think all of these things simultaneously:

Begum was radicalised as a child.
Begum has been exploited.
Begum is extremely traumatised.
Begum has allegedly committed atrocities.
Begum is the UK’s problem.

All those things can be true at the same time.

You don't have any knowledge about the perpetrator being groomed or radicalised though. It's just something you seem to assume if that person is 15

I “assume” that partly because of her age and partly because that’s how Isis recruit.

@SmileEachDay

Wondering what you think should happen to Shamima when she returns? Do you think she deserves jail?

If, I should say, she returns

@SmileEachDay

Bella Read what I wrote again. Innocent when the grooming began.

That is totally separate to how crime should be punished. Of course violent crime should be punished - I think the knowledge of a perpetrator being groomed/radicalised is helpful to any future rehabilitation though, wouldn’t you agree?

It wouldn’t appear to be helpful in this case. She has no remorse or recognition that Isil is in the wrong. She defended the Manchester Arena bombing. She’s beyond rehabilitation or redemption.

@SmileEachDay

You don't have any knowledge about the perpetrator being groomed or radicalised though. It's just something you seem to assume if that person is 15

I “assume” that partly because of her age and partly because that’s how Isis recruit.

I was talking about people joining gangs.

Wondering what you think should happen to Shamima when she returns? Do you think she deserves jail?

Yes. She’s at least committed the offence of joining a terrorist group - plus other crimes are alleged. I think she also needs intensive rehabilitation.

I was talking about people joining gangs

Oh, ok.

Well no, I don’t have any information about your hypothetical gang member. I said in the first response “If there was evidence of grooming..”