Shamima Begum cannot return.....

[Lillylolo]

What are your opinions?

I feel that her dual heritage has been used against her, to push her towards Bangladesh.

However, I do feel she is a threat to the general public and it would be incredibly difficult to control/monitor her actions. Which may put the rest of the population at risk.

This is just an open debate. Let’s try not to rip each other apart, more of a healthy debate

@SmileEachDay
Begum was attracted to and sought out radical ideologies.at the age of 15, well past the age of criminal responsibility.
Begum was active in the abuse of Yazidi women.
Begum has shown no sign of regret. You are assuming trauma based on how most would respond.
Radicalisation seems to be an interesting word. There could be a whole other discussion around it. Lots of people though history and currently have embraced extreme ideology. Coercion and extreme circumstances can be mitigating factors. Child soldiers as previously mentioned certainly were radicalised and had little choice in their circumstances . It’s an interesting word to use though for people who sit in their bedroom, in th U.K., gloating over beheading videos and then make contact with those same people. Everyone is innocent before they head down certain roads. It’s a facile argument.

Begum was attracted to and sought out radical ideologies.at the age of 15, well past the age of criminal responsibility

She left and was married by 15.

I don’t know when the radicalisation started.

I don’t think we’re going to agree, Blackberry - but radicalisation is a very interesting concept, yes.

**Blackberrycream

@SmileEachDay
I’m not sure where you received your training but no it is not the same. If any of the Rochdale girls had gone on to commit serious offences, they too would have been held responsible for their crimes if over the age of criminal responsibility. They didn’t though and that is where your comparison is offensive.**

I think a more valid comparison would be those girls who went on to play a part in the grooming of new victims by befriending them and luring them into harm’s way with alcohol and fags. They were victims initially but then became perpetrators.

But it isn’t unknown at all for victims to become perpetrators. It doesn’t mean that they’re not held responsible for the crimes they themselves commit.

@SmileEachDay

I was talking about people joining gangs

Oh, ok.

Well no, I don’t have any information about your hypothetical gang member. I said in the first response “If there was evidence of grooming..”

Yes, but you seem to think the fact that someone was only 15 when they joined the gang or terrorist group is evidence in itself.

She left and was married by 15

She left when she was 15 years and six months. She sought out the organisation that radicalised her, it didn’t identity a school girl in Bethnal Green and decide she looked like a potential recruit.

Yes, but you seem to think the fact that someone was only 15 when they joined the gang or terrorist group is evidence in itself

It’s certainly indicator.

With Isis, it’s how they recruit. With criminal gangs it’s how they recruit. Children and young people involved in criminal exploitation have much in common with radicalised young people.

But y’know - it’s your hypothetical gang member, not mine, so maybe you have more information 🤣

She Is A British Citizen. She was 15 when she left here.

@SmileEachDay

Yes, but you seem to think the fact that someone was only 15 when they joined the gang or terrorist group is evidence in itself

It’s certainly indicator.

With Isis, it’s how they recruit. With criminal gangs it’s how they recruit. Children and young people involved in criminal exploitation have much in common with radicalised young people.

But y’know - it’s your hypothetical gang member, not mine, so maybe you have more information 🤣

You keep saying that's how Isis recruit but she would have needed to have sought them out initially which means that she was already sympathetic to their ideology.

She left when she was 15 years and six months. She sought out the organisation that radicalised her, it didn’t identity a school girl in Bethnal Green and decide she looked like a potential recruit

Mm - I don’t think it is at all clear how she (and the other girls) were radicalised. The fact the a Serious Case Review has not happened- because it didn’t meet the threshold - is appalling.

No it’s not clear but they didn’t just rock up at her house. It involved online searches.

@Blackberrycream

No it’s not clear but they didn’t just rock up at her house. It involved online searches.

Of course it did. It’s ludicrous to think anything else.

I believe that, in the argot of islamist-supporting millennials, it would be correct to say that I "give zero fu̶c̶k̶s" about the fate of this monster - as long as it doesn't involve her coming to our country.

Last time I loo[ked over 400 ISIS sadists have returned, our "security" service has already lost track of many of them.

Distraction from this problem is obviously required. I expect another "far right is the real threat" story in the next few weeks.

It beggars belief that the school sent her on her way with a letter expressing their concern, which she read and destroyed.

Perhaps it would be simpler if we shot terrorists immediately we discovered them. That would save a lot of time and sympathy wasted on murderers of children.

Shot terrorists Like the Guilford 4, Maguire 4? Innocent wrongly convicted

I’d forgotten what Grace Dent wrote back in 2015, not long after they went. She speaks for me.

www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/if-teenage-girls-want-join-isis-face-all-its-atrocities-then-they-should-leave-and-never-return-10065516.html

Good riddance. She’s made her choices

I think I read that at the time but had forgotten. Thanks VinylDetective
It speaks for me too.

[quote Blackberrycream]@SmileEachDay
You seem to not understand the difference between being the victim of sexual assault and being the perpetrator of abuse .
The Rochdale girls were not committing a crime. Begum clearly was.
She is well beyond the age of criminal responsibility. The truth is that many who commit crimes may have been influenced, have difficult backgrounds or may have been victims of abuse themselves. There is an age though where you are expected to take responsibility for criminal actions. She was at that age. Please stop the offensive comparisons with victims of sexual assault. The difference is clear. They did not victimise others and were not complicit in criminal atrocities.[/quote]
As a survivor of grooming I don't find it offensive and I believe that the two have a lot of parallels.

I understand why it is natural to feel sympathy for one and not the other (although victim blaming is still rife in the dark world of sexual violence) but I think we need to push past these knee jerk reactions and learn how these terrible situations evolve so that we can prevent them happening again. To be very simplistic about it, one thing that would help protect children from both grooming and radicalisation would be for their families to love and cherish them, to keep them close. And for wider family, neighbours and schools to look out for families who are experiencing strife (rather than judging and isolating them)

Everyone needs a sense of belonging and a safe place to fall. The children who don't have this are very vulnerable.

It is not normal for a 15yo to do what Begum did, there was a terrible concoction of events and circumstances that came together to enable her. I believe we can do better than flick her off as someone else's problem, we can address the damage and take the opportunity to learn how to prevent it happening again. It might cost more money, win fewer political points and take longer than dumping her but it is the right thing to do and, in the long term, for the betterment of all nations.

I think that had ISIS been more successful, she would still be living with her husband overseas participating in terrorism or supporting terrorism (based on what she has said in interviews). She escaped going to prison or standing trial. She can make a new life in Iran or Afghanistan. By finalising the decision in the UK, it brings this saga to a close and frees her up to move elsewhere. As a poster said - if her husband isn't in prison, she could presumably be with him.

A key consideration, which I haven't seen mentioned yet on this thread, is that the UK may not have sufficient court-standard evidence to convict her for serious crimes. Either because they don't have the evidence, or it's not admissible because of how it has been collected.

Does it change peoples' views if we knew she would face no prosecution here, or perhaps one on lesser charges?

To those saying she was raised here and radicalised her because of our elitism. Bullshit. She was a teenager getting a free education, going to the cinema with her mates and hanging around shopping malls. She could have become a doctor or a lawyer. She chose to fight against the values of the UK. That's her choice, but nobody in the UK is responsible for her choice. Not the people who have her free healthcare, free dentistry, free schooling. Save your sympathy for teenagers in developing countries.

It has been mentioned @burnedout but none of her apologists want to address it. Too difficult I guess.

Apologists. Such provocative hyperbole to divert from your weak points @VinylDetective
Ms Begum has no apologists. There are posters with misgivings about due process
It’s risible to dismiss posters whom you disagree with as apologists. It shows a lack of intellectual rigour, you are resorting to name calling in lack of any compelling points