Shamima Begum cannot return.....

[Lillylolo]

What are your opinions?

I feel that her dual heritage has been used against her, to push her towards Bangladesh.

However, I do feel she is a threat to the general public and it would be incredibly difficult to control/monitor her actions. Which may put the rest of the population at risk.

This is just an open debate. Let’s try not to rip each other apart, more of a healthy debate

She's a British citizen. She was radicalised as a child living here. She's our problem. I think the decision made shames us.

Letts ‘qualifies ‘ for a Canadian passport due to his father’s citizenship. That is from The Guardian. They both automatically qualify for citizenship of another country due to parental nationality.
Letts only started to talk about his links to Canada after he was stripped of U.K. nationality. Incidentally Canada have dealt with him as they have with other Canadian nationals who joined ISIS and are now stuck in camps. They will receive no assistance.

@ChilliHeeler

Agree with others she was radicalised not groomed. It’s an insult to those innocent people who are groomed for sexual assault to conflate the two. She wasn’t trafficked either she made a complex journey across several countries with her 2 friends. It was sad she was radicalised so you but so were many, perhaps all terrorists who commuted crimes in this country we don’t suggest sending them back to their families to be cared for and given therapy.

It really isn't an insult to a person who has been groomed, what makes you say that?

I was groomed and I see in it as very similar, the vulnerable are targeted, manipulated and in essence you have your mind messed with.
I also see in Begum the same zombie-like demeanour I experienced while in deep trauma.

Quite separately, I recognise it as Britain's responsibility to bring her back and address the damage.

@victoriaspongecake

If she was white and blonde and called Lucy or Charlotte and had a nice “English” speaking voice no one would even be having this conversation. People would be saying we need to get her home. She was a child who was radicalised. She needs help not hatred.

That is BS and you know it is. Stop trying to bring race into it.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@Belladonna12
When no country is taking her and there are no courts in a country as ravaged as Syria, leaving a terrorist out there when she could be brought back to put in jail is exporting terrorism, no matter how you twist it.
She is born and bred British. Our mess, our responsibility.[/quote]
How can we jail her here if the crime was committed somewhere else and the witnesses are dead . We don't normally bring people back to the UK if they have committed a crime in another country. They are normally tried and jailed in the country where they committed the crime. If she comes back now she will get away with it as have the majority of other ISIS terrorist who have come home. More importantly, she could commit crimes here. Innocent people could die as a result of her returning.

Agree with others she was radicalised not groomed. It’s an insult to those innocent people who are groomed

Was she not “innocent” as a school kid?
What mechanisms do you think Isis use? How are they different to those used by the adults grooming children?

I believe that her father took her to religious/ political rallies didn’t he?

I was reading about the Yazidis today and what these people did to them. She wasn’t such a fool that she didn’t know this before she went (the recruiters would tell their targets) and yet she didn’t find it abhorrent? To have the mentality to dehumanise others is just dreadful.

I really don’t know if she should return to the U.K. or not. But I certainly don’t think the Syrians deserve to have to solve this problem.

@SmileEachDay

Agree with others she was radicalised not groomed. It’s an insult to those innocent people who are groomed

Was she not “innocent” as a school kid?
What mechanisms do you think Isis use? How are they different to those used by the adults grooming children?

She was 15. Well above the age of criminal responsibility. Whether or not it is correct to take away her British citizenship, the idea that she was some innocent who didn't know what she was doing is ridiculous.

I think the decision made shames us

Whether it does or not, at least it's possible to recover from shame

Death by terrorist attack less so

She was 15. Well above the age of criminal responsibility. Whether or not it is correct to take away her British citizenship, the idea that she was some innocent who didn't know what she was doing is ridiculous

You know that some of the girls in Rochdale were 15, right? Did they “know what they were getting into” when the grooming process began?

I’ll repeat this:

What mechanisms do you think Isis use? How are they different to those used by the adults grooming children?

Any ideas?

I believe that her father took her to religious/ political rallies didn’t he?

We don't know if Shamima's father acted like this or not, but you might be thinking of Amira Abase, whose father definitely did

I certainly don’t think the Syrians deserve to have to solve this problem

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I doubt Syria's doing much about her at all. They have problems enough and are probably quite happy to leave her to rot in the camp

You know that some of the girls in Rochdale were 15, right? Did they “know what they were getting into” when the grooming process began?

It’s disingenuous to compare them. Begum knew exactly what she was getting into:

She said she was inspired to join ISIL by videos of fighters beheading hostages

Those aren’t the words of an innocent who doesn’t know what they’re letting themselves in for.

@LookingForSalt I guess I feel people who are groomed for sexual assault are completely innocent but as a victim I appreciate your perspective.

I think it’s a complex issue and bringing her back. Just because she was young when it happened sets a dangerous precedent both for crimes here and elsewhere to use radicalisation as a defence. She knew it was ‘wrong’ well enough to conceal her departure and sneak into another country. She certainly should not come back to be ‘cared for by her family’ I’m uncertain she has any remorse and keeping her safe and any attempts to de-radicalise would be expensive and time consuming.

It’s disingenuous to compare them. Begum knew exactly what she was getting into:

Then I’d conclude you don’t know very much about grooming and radicalisation. That’s fine, but your opinion isn’t based on anything other than your feelings.

You know that some of the girls in Rochdale were 15, right? Did they “know what they were getting into” when the grooming process began?

Not this again. How can you possibly compare CSE victims to people who go to join ISIS?

@SmileEachDay

It’s disingenuous to compare them. Begum knew exactly what she was getting into:

Then I’d conclude you don’t know very much about grooming and radicalisation. That’s fine, but your opinion isn’t based on anything other than your feelings.

It’s based on what she says. I’ll take her word against yours, thanks.

@Puzzledandpissedoff

I think the decision made shames us

Whether it does or not, at least it's possible to recover from shame

Death by terrorist attack less so

Quite right you are. So let’s dump her on people whose lives don’t matter as much British lives.

Not this again. How can you possibly compare CSE victims to people who go to join ISIS?

How can I? Because I’ve done extensive training in radicalisation and CSE and I’ve worked with children who fall into both categories for a long time.

@SmileEachDay

She was 15. Well above the age of criminal responsibility. Whether or not it is correct to take away her British citizenship, the idea that she was some innocent who didn't know what she was doing is ridiculous

You know that some of the girls in Rochdale were 15, right? Did they “know what they were getting into” when the grooming process began?

I’ll repeat this:

What mechanisms do you think Isis use? How are they different to those used by the adults grooming children?

Any ideas?

The difference is, the girls in Rochdale were victims of crimes. They weren't the perpetrators and they didn't realise what was going to happen until it was too late. If a boy joined a gang in the UK at the age of 15 and then killed someone at the age of 17 would you insist that they were innocent because they joined the gang at the age of 15?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but somehow I doubt Syria's doing much about her at all. They have problems enough and are probably quite happy to leave her to rot in the camp

This comment shows why our people have no idea how terrorism works.
You can’t create terrorists and let them loose whenever we you feel like.
Taliban and Saddam are just two examples I keep repeating here. You can’t ditch terrorists and radicalised people and Hope for the best.
You have no come down to the argument of ‘Syrians aren’t looking that worried so not our problem’. Seriously?
We can’t set this precedent at all.

And to everyone saying states have rights to strip citizenship, it’s not called stripping is it?
India doesn’t allow dual nationality but if someone from India opts for a different citizenship, does it mean India stripped their citizenship or is it that they opted out of it?

Regardless of all this discussion, the elephant in the room is still that we can’t create and dump terrorists in other regions and Hope it doesn’t come back to bite us.

We did it with Mid East and Taliban and it came back to bite us on the arse.

Two wrongs and all that.

If a boy joined a gang in the UK at the age of 15 and then killed someone at the age of 17 would you insist that they were innocent because they joined the gang at the age of 15?

If they were groomed into the gang - as often happens with County Lines/criminal exploitation- then I’d certainly argue they were potentially innocent when the grooming process started, and were too far into it to get out when the serious exploitation started.

@SmileEachDay
You seem to not understand the difference between being the victim of sexual assault and being the perpetrator of abuse .
The Rochdale girls were not committing a crime. Begum clearly was.
She is well beyond the age of criminal responsibility. The truth is that many who commit crimes may have been influenced, have difficult backgrounds or may have been victims of abuse themselves. There is an age though where you are expected to take responsibility for criminal actions. She was at that age. Please stop the offensive comparisons with victims of sexual assault. The difference is clear. They did not victimise others and were not complicit in criminal atrocities.

Tbh it often happens younger - remember Begum was 15 when she left. It’s likely the radicalisation process had been going on for quite some time.

She is living in a camp apparently, not strictly a jail.
What is stopping her from getting her hands on a gun and take her frustration out on those around her?

Whose fault would that be? Why should Syrians pay that price when they are already doing it?

I can it bullshit.
Tories blatantly ignored warnings from police that the cuts to police force in tens of thousands will result in dire consequences when it comes to controlling terrorism. Cameron the Whistler ignored it all and now we are in a mess.