Shamima Begum cannot return.....

[Lillylolo]

What are your opinions?

I feel that her dual heritage has been used against her, to push her towards Bangladesh.

However, I do feel she is a threat to the general public and it would be incredibly difficult to control/monitor her actions. Which may put the rest of the population at risk.

This is just an open debate. Let’s try not to rip each other apart, more of a healthy debate

Yes she was radicalised by adults....but radicalisation is being manipulated into committing atrocities against others. Being groomed by men who rape you over and over is different.

Definitely! As an SA survivor, I find this comparison very insulting. It isn’t at all the same thing.

they shouldn't have been brought back either.
So you are happy to export terrorism then?

@Belladonna12

Yes, there is a very sexist 'you've made your bed, now lie in it' attitude from many people. I'd rather live next door to SB than one of the thousands of male former ISIS fighters that live in the UK.

It would only be sexist if people were that it is okay for male ISIS fighters to come back but not SB. People don't want male ISIS fighters back either.

Thousands of male ISIS fighters have come back and are living freely in the UK after serving either a short jail sentence or none at all. Nobody even knows their names, but everyone is frothing about this one girl.

SB should be investigated and prosecuted for any crimes she has committed, but stripping her of her citizenship and dumping her in the developing world is not right. She was born and raised in Britain. She is British. Stripping citizenship from homegrown citizens is a terrifying slippery slope.

@MrsMercedes, yes we do know that she was groomed. There was a spate of online grooming at the time and people were charged. If you read the timeline, the inaction is shocking. Also she married a Dutch Isis fighter, their marriage is not recognised by the Dutch because she was underage. It's irrelevant what the laws were in the country that she got married in.

The Supreme Court has decided that her human right to fight being stripped of British citizenship does NOT trump the right of other British citizens being put at increased risk by her being here to do so.

Also, we haven't dumped her anywhere so very confused at this being repeated over and over.

She took herself there/was radicalised by ISIL members over there via the world wide Web.

If you read the timeline, the inaction is shocking

Yep. A total failure of safeguarding.

@SmileEachDay

maybe its legal to marry at 15 in the country she was in?

Irrelevant, as she was a British citizen who had been groomed by Isis.

'was' being the appropriate word. its not irrelevant at all. she knew this would happen

and why did you direct people to an article on a website begging for money?

[quote RandomLondoner]Lots of people on the thread are claiming that she is stateless, yet I don't believe British law would allow British politicians to make her stateless, so I've felt the need to resolve this contradiction.

From a BBC article I learned that under the Bangladeshi law that makes her a citizen, if she does nothing to retain her citizenship by the age of 21, her citizenship automatically expires. So if she was stripped of her British citizenship before her 21st birthday, she was not made stateless by Britain's actions. What has made her stateless, at a later date, is Bangladeshi law. So technically, it is Bangladesh not Britain that has breached the international obligation never to make someone stateless.

(I believe that morally we should not be using a legal technicality to dump her on Bangladesh.)

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-47310206[/quote]
The article you quote is over-simplified for the general public which makes it problematic.

She doesn’t automatically get Bangladeshi citizenship by virtue of her parents’ nationality. She is eligible to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship until she reaches the age of 21 - after which that eligibility will expire.

So at the time of the Home Office decision to strip her of her citizenship she was stateless since she had never applied for Bangladeshi citizenship before.

Let’s use an analogy. To be eligible for a council house you need to be homeless. So say you’re a single mother and get chucked out of your parents home. At the point your parents made the decision to throw you out, you’re homeless despite being eligible to apply for council housing.

Likewise, at the point Begum was stripped of her British citizenship she was stateless despite being eligible to apply for Bangladeshi citizenship under their law (ignoring the fact that the Bangladeshi government has said they won’t extend this eligibility to her).

[quote Ponoka7]@MrsMercedes, yes we do know that she was groomed. There was a spate of online grooming at the time and people were charged. If you read the timeline, the inaction is shocking. Also she married a Dutch Isis fighter, their marriage is not recognised by the Dutch because she was underage. It's irrelevant what the laws were in the country that she got married in.[/quote]
so someone has been charged with the grooming of Begum?

its not irrelevant at all. she knew this would happen
It’s completely irrelevant- as a PP pointed out, the marriage isn’t recognised by the Dutch authorities because she was underage.

and why did you direct people to an article on a website begging for money?

Ummm it’s the Guardian? They’re not begging for money, they just don’t use paywalls 🤷🏻‍♀️

@Ponoka7

I don't understand how she is a bigger tbreat than the hundreds of male Isis fighters that we've allowed in. Most of them joined Isis after the age of 18, actually killed people in the name of Isis and haven't shown that they have been deradicalised/reformed. Many of them have duel citizenship. She's a poster child for the Torys on how tough they are on Isis and how unlike Labour they don't support terrorism. She should have been allowed back when her baby Son was still alive. He was a British citizen.

They came back in then we found them she was found before she came back in

And how many of them have been stripped of their British citizenship and deported @Ponoka7? Whether you think Shamima should be tried here or not there does seem to be a massive double standard in play.

@SmileEachDay

its not irrelevant at all. she knew this would happen It’s completely irrelevant- as a PP pointed out, the marriage isn’t recognised by the Dutch authorities because she was underage.

and why did you direct people to an article on a website begging for money?

Ummm it’s the Guardian? They’re not begging for money, they just don’t use paywalls 🤷🏻‍♀️

in HER tiny little head she was married....a big girl. not quite so smug now though is she.....and wheres her family and friends?? why aren't they all being vocal

Yes SB isnt the only ISIL member they've stripped of citizenship. There's about 100 more in her camp alone, apparently. She is not being singled out.

Also what about the research showing females who have been radicalised are not "passive victims" and there are far more complicated factors at play.

Why do people keeping saying that she's a child.
No! She is 21.
And she is not a British citizen.
Saying it on MN doesn't make it so.
She can claim citizenship of Bangladesh so she is not stateless. She chooses not to do so.
She I'd definitely not our problem.
The safety of our citizens is more important. She is a national security risk and posters saying "how can she be a security risk" clearly and rightly don't have the ear of the security officers, the government or the Supreme Court. I take their word for it and feel safer with her outside the UK.

My daughter is 15. There is no way she would understand the wider implications of even more simple choices right now. She is still a child and needs guiding.

I think the adults around Shamima were the ones who should be held at least partially accountable for not recognising what was happening and nipping it in the bud far earlier. Parents, relatives, teachers etc. We all make stupid decisions as teens. If she had been 18/19 I might view it differently as a lot of growing up and understanding happens in those few years.

As for what happens now - hopefully the justice system will judge her fairly and make a decision based on all factors, including the potential risks she might pose to others in our country.

Isn't her dad an extremist too? Wasn't he caught on camera at a "death to the U.K." rally in London?

I think that was Amira Abase's dad - the one who boo-hoo'd while clutching her teddy and whined that he knew nothing of his daughter's activities, but was then found to have taken her to hate-filled rallies

I mention it here because someone mentioned they "felt sorry" for Shamima's family, and that's fair enough up to a point. But it doesn't address why none of them noticed what she was up to, especially in the context of a culture where girls are often heavily monitored

We can't know if the family were involved any more than we can know if she had and lost three children - a point which nobody seems prepared to address - but I expect the security services hold more information more than the rest of us and it might be wise to avoid making assumptions

I keep reading that many are on the fence because she was 15 when she made the decision to leave but there is a massive difference between making a stupid decision like lying to your parents about going to a friends house when you're actually drinking in the local park and joining isis.

I don't think she should be allowed back in the UK.

Yes SB isnt the only ISIL member they've stripped of citizenship. There's about 100 more in her camp alone, apparently. She is not being singled out

I hadn't heard about this ... are the other 100 all Brits, or have other nations also had the sense to do the same?

What they're saying is that she was abused and coerced into becoming an extremist who aided and abetted murder and torture.

That she is a victim and the fact she was legally a child makes it even more so.

I don't think it's this black and white. I also don't believe her individual right to fight the Home Offices decision on British soil should trump the right of all of our safety. And neither does the Supreme Court.

@Puzzledandpissedoff I gather that they are British. Human rights groups fighting for them etc

She is a threat to this country, I am glad and next is rooting out those who recruited her in the first place.
I have no sympathy for her, she knew exactly what she was doing.

"The government has refused to reveal how many people have been deprived of their British citizenship in the past two years after dramatically increasing its use of controversial powers to prevent the return of Isis members.

The number of people subjected to the measure rose by more than 600 per cent in 2017"

She needs to stay where she is. When she was part of a sadistic, murderous group she was fine but now it's all fallen apart around her suddenly Britain looks alright after all. It seems like a case of 'Good old soft touch brits will take pity on me!' Well, sorry but not this one. Acquired citizenship is a privilege and not a right, it can be revoked and it was. I'm not normally a 'you made your bed so lie in it' person but we have enough problems in this country without importing more. They know that regardless of whether she wins or loses her case once she sets foot in the UK it will be impossible to remove her, so until she has won she needs to stay out. She is being coached in manipulation and we need to stop giving her publicity.