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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

Shamima Begum cannot return.....

999 replies

Lillylolo · 26/02/2021 20:40

What are your opinions?

I feel that her dual heritage has been used against her, to push her towards Bangladesh.

However, I do feel she is a threat to the general public and it would be incredibly difficult to control/monitor her actions. Which may put the rest of the population at risk.

This is just an open debate. Let’s try not to rip each other apart, more of a healthy debate

OP posts:

Dugee · 27/02/2021 11:03

@Dannydevitoiloveyourart

The British public Daily mail readership do not want the Shamima Begums of the world to be allowed to live here. The current Government understand that.

Fixed it for you.

She’s a British citizen - you don’t get to decide she’s not. British criminals should face the British justice system. It’s not hard to understand.

You don’t have to believe I’m a lawyer - that’s not the point really. The point is you’re commenting using illogical and racist arguments on a legal issue you fundamentally misunderstand.

The government seem to disagree with you.

seasidefishwife · 27/02/2021 11:04

@SuperSimple

I'm a bit shocked at people comparing a 15 year old being radicalised into joining ISIS, to 11-12 year olds being gang raped and tortured in the Rochdale 'grooming gang' cases.

Completely different. Shamima was not gang raped or tortured.

It's not the "acceptable" type of grooming with an "acceptable" victim. Psychological / emotional abuse and coercive control are now recognised criminal offences. It took a long time to get to that point, but we are finally there. How is this different? She was a child, she was groomed. She left at 15 but how long do you think the grooming occurred for before then? A child is a child. Grooming is grooming. The UK have behaved appallingly here.

TheKeatingFive · 27/02/2021 11:05

The government seem to disagree with you.

Looks like the international courts disagree with them.

MrsMercedes · 27/02/2021 11:06

@WhereDoMyBluebirdsFly

Oh dear. Do you actually think it’s that simple?

Thewithesarehere · 27/02/2021 11:10

@Lemonsyellow

This is why I keep asking everyone on this thread: imagine you are ISIS, imagine you have girl trapped in your camp (who can’t leave apparently, hence trapped), now imagine she has her face splashed on newspapers all over U.K. and is giving interviews etc. How come they haven’t executed her yet?

She’s not in an ISIS camp, though.

I was replying to a previous post.

Porcupineintherough · 27/02/2021 11:12

@WhereDoMyBluebirdsFly who exactly do you think could take her out of the camp where she is being held? And which third country could she be moved to now she is basically stateless?

MrsMercedes · 27/02/2021 11:13

@WhereDoMyBluebirdsFly

Begum is currently in a camp controlled by armed guards in northern Syria. She cannot speak to her lawyers or participate in a hearing by video.20 hours ago

woodhill · 27/02/2021 11:15

Perhaps she will accidentally disappear at some point?

Mittens030869 · 27/02/2021 11:16

Is the problem more about the fact that the UK wouldn’t be able to lock her up for terrorist offences? Her crimes were committed on Syrian soil not in the UK. She would be freed very quickly, I think. Then she would need to be monitored as a terrorist threat. She hasn’t expressed any remorse for her actions or a change in beliefs.

And imagine if she were to become involved in a terrorist act like 7/7 or the Manchester Arena bombing. The outcry against the government could be huge.

She can appeal again, the justices said, once she’s been allowed back in the UK. So the loss of UK citizenship doesn’t have to be permanent.

Some of the posts have been racist/Islamophobic. Some of the comments have been, especially the ones about ‘heritage’. I’m half Czech, but never lived there and never learned the language. It’s a meaningless argument and no one would bring it up if Begnum were white, like I am.

But there is a genuine problem with what to do if Begnum were to come back to the UK. And the Home Secretary who stripped her of her citizenship was Sajid Javed, who is Muslim and of Asian heritage. So I don’t see how he can be accused of being racist in making the decision in the first place.

FatCatThinCat · 27/02/2021 11:18

She's our problem to deal with. Unless the government are happy to set a precedent for when we want to deport foreign criminals.

Porcupineintherough · 27/02/2021 11:22

She could be quite easily imprisoned for terrorist crimes committed abroad. But other than joining isis in the first place no one really seems clear about what crimes she has committed. Not so easy to find witnesses or evidence after the fact. She may have been an active participant in atrocities, or she may have done no worse than witness them as a trophy wife for a terrorist-and we will probably never know either way.

It is certainly true that lots of young men who went to fight for isis are now living back in the UK after serving minimal or no prison sentences. And it is hard to understand exactly what this young woman has done to be so vilified when they are not.

Thewithesarehere · 27/02/2021 11:23

the Home Secretary who stripped her of her citizenship was Sajid Javed, who is Muslim and of Asian heritage.
As if people of Asian heritage can’t be racists. The generalisations on this thread

The government seem to disagree with you.

This reminds me of Mr Dudley from Harry Potter. Someone who used to put a lot of faith in establishment.

SuperSimple · 27/02/2021 11:24

@seasidefishwife
how do you know she's been emotionally abused and coercively controlled? She hasn't been groomed. She's been radicalised.

Comparing her choice to go and aid ISIS members in their beheading and torturing of others, to others being gang raped by grown men is ridiculous.

AllDoneIn · 27/02/2021 11:26

She was fifteen years old. Whatever my personal feelings for her, I can't get past the fact she was a child who was groomed on the internet. There's something about her a certain deadness behind the eyes that makes me wonder if she's purely traumatised or if there's more to it - maybe some kind of undiagnosed condition. Either way, there needs to be some kind of compassion in recognition of her age.

Thewithesarehere · 27/02/2021 11:26

[quote SuperSimple]@seasidefishwife
how do you know she's been emotionally abused and coercively controlled? She hasn't been groomed. She's been radicalised.

Comparing her choice to go and aid ISIS members in their beheading and torturing of others, to others being gang raped by grown men is ridiculous.[/quote]
Are you saying radicalisation campaigns are not run by grown ups and adults?
I have no sympathy for her. I just don’t want to be that neighbour who dumps a bin load of waste on their neighbour’s drive because the neighbour is weak.

Dugee · 27/02/2021 11:28

@LookingForSalt

Dugee

She is of Bangladeshi heritage though. When people choose to come here for the benefits of living in a western society, they need to realise that they are expected to behave in a responsible way too. Shamima Begum hasn't demonstrated that she should have the right to live in a western country, in fact she has only demonstrated that she wants to attack, kill and maim westerners. So why should she have the right to live here?

Do you have even a sliver of insight into how racist, ignorant and offensive your post is? I'm freshly amazed by the level of bigotry in here.

Do you even have a sliver of insight in to general public opinion?

SmileEachDay · 27/02/2021 11:30

So why should she have the right to live here?

She should have the same right to live here as any of the pupils at the school she attended in Bethnal Green. She doesn’t have to earn that right - we don’t decide who gets to stay in this country based on merit.

Ian Huntley. Harold Shipman. Fred West. Awful, sickening crimes. Should they have been shipped abroad and left stateless? Where should they have been taken?

She was radicalised - the process is identical to grooming, for those splitting hairs - and has done some terrible things. Feeling compassion for her does not mean thinking she should not receive justice.

Her lack of remorse? That’s unsurprising - one of the ways individuals deal with extreme trauma is by compartmentalising - plus, I’ve no doubt she was in danger whilst the famous interview was taking place.

She isn’t a poster girl for Isis, she’s a poster girl for what happens when safeguarding fails.

The total lack of understanding on this thread is combined with overt, unapologetic racism. It’s sickening.

SuperSimple · 27/02/2021 11:33

Yes she was radicalised by adults....but radicalisation is being manipulated into committing atrocities against others. Being groomed by men who rape you over and over is different.

The fact that people are actually trying to give her the same victim status as the grooming gang victims is really offensive.

Porcupineintherough · 27/02/2021 11:34

@SuperSimple so what atrocities has she committed? That's a genuine question.

VinylDetective · 27/02/2021 11:34

I just don’t want to be that neighbour who dumps a bin load of waste on their neighbour’s drive because the neighbour is weak

That extremely weak analogy is getting very tired now.

She wasn’t groomed, she was radicalised. At 15 she was five years over the age of criminal responsibility, she doesn’t get a free pass.

SmileEachDay · 27/02/2021 11:37

Yes she was radicalised by adults....but radicalisation is being manipulated into committing atrocities against others. Being groomed by men who rape you over and over is different

Grooming and radicalisation are the same process. The adults doing it are doing it for different reasons.

SuperSimple · 27/02/2021 11:37

[quote Porcupineintherough]@SuperSimple so what atrocities has she committed? That's a genuine question.[/quote]
She married an ISIS member, she has spoken coldly of seeing severed heads in bins and supporting all that they did. She aided and abetted then in every way she was permitted to do so as a female member of the caliphate.

Porcupineintherough · 27/02/2021 11:37

Nobody is arguing that she should get "a free pass" though @VinylDetective. More whether it's ok to strip someone of their citizenship without even giving them a trial.

Thewithesarehere · 27/02/2021 11:37

@VinylDetective