AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

[LastRoloIsMine]

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

@LastRoloIsMine

OK - so not all human females are women, we've established that much.

So is an 11 year old a woman?
Is a pregnant 11 year old a woman?
Do they become a woman by becoming pregnant, or are they in fact a pregnant person?

OK - so not all human females are women, we've established that much.

Did it need establishing?

So is an 11 year old a woman?
Is a pregnant 11 year old a woman?

The vast majority of pregnant people are women as in adult females. An 11 yo becoming pregnant does not change that.
That said an 11 yo if pregnant would be an expectant mother which is used in the bill. A pregnant 11 yo would not need rights regarding employment though would they?

You think this is some kind 8f gotcha. It is you just look foolish.

Its not 11 yo girls who are trying to erase the word woman

They are a pregnant human female. Whether they are an adult or not is entirely irrelevant.

A human who is pregnant is of the female sex. Always.

or are they in fact a pregnant person?

No, they are a pregnant girl and in all likelihood a victim of abuse.

We have words that allow us to distinguish between female children and female adults and male children and male adults.

Yes that really isn’t the gotcha you thought it was.

[quote Cailleachian]@LastRoloIsMine

OK - so not all human females are women, we've established that much.

So is an 11 year old a woman?
Is a pregnant 11 year old a woman?
Do they become a woman by becoming pregnant, or are they in fact a pregnant person?[/quote]
Could you say that again, slowly? I think you utterly misunderstood something.

Is an 11 year old a woman? No. S/he is a child.

Do they become a woman by becoming pregnant? No. But a female child would become a mother if she carried that child to term.

An 11 year old boy wouldn't become pregnant.

Mothers are female. Not matter how they identify.

@Ninkanink

They are a pregnant human female. Whether they are an adult or not is entirely irrelevant.

A human who is pregnant is of the female sex. Always.

@Ninkanink, I totally agree.

The question is tho whether all people who are pregnant are women.

If all pregnant people are women, that 11 year old is a woman
If all women are adult human females that 11 year old is an adult.

My point is that it is not your gender (woman/man) which determines whether or not you can be pregnant but your sex (male/female), and that there is no necessary reason for sex and gender to align...and indeed in many cultures and languages although there is a relationship between sex and gender, that relationship is not the same as is commonly understood in the West.

If that 11year old girl had continued to grow up before being abused into becoming pregnant, she would be a woman. It’s pretty disgusting to resort to arguing about whether an 11 year old victim is a pregnant woman or person.

@LastRoloIsMine

"The vast majority of pregnant people are women"

Yes, I agree.....the vast majority, but not all, but all pregnant people are.....pregnant people.

So whats wrong with using the term "pregnant people" to describe people who are pregnant?

So whats wrong with using the term "pregnant people" to describe people who are pregnant?

Did you somehow miss the last 31 pages of the thread?

The question is tho whether all people who are pregnant are women.

Nope that was never the question.
We know there are girls under 18 that become pregnant. None ofthat means boys or men can.
Adult is used as the default in law unless it specifically targets a child.
However the maternity bill states expectant mothers and mothers so 11 yo girls are covered.

What is your actual point? Should we stop using woman for the 640,000 births every year in favour of the less that 12,000 births where the mother is under 18??

No, that doesn’t follow.

Woman/Mother for the purposes of the bill being proposed makes perfect sense. This isn’t an exercise in logic.

Everybody knows what it means, everyone knows it to be true.

‘Gender’ and everything connected to it now is a load of ideological bollocks. It may have been a useful term in academia some time a very long way back, but it’s utterly nonsensical now, with all the word soup people use it in aid of.

My point is that it is not your gender (woman/man)

You think ‘woman’ is a gender. I say it is a neutral, inclusive word to refer to sex.

Gender: masculine or feminine. There is no need for a noun to classify masculine or feminine people.

Woman is not a gender.

Gender does not refer to sex.

So... You want us to go all the way back to the beginning of this thread, many threads before it and the whole HoL debate and answer that question again?

Why not just read the many times the same question has been answered?

Or maybe answer the question that remains unanswered: why change the wording at all? Who benefits? Transmen? Like Freddie? Well his case opened the floodgates, your question was answered by the highest court.

So whats wrong with using the term "pregnant people" to describe people who are pregnant

Already asked, answered, and decided.

@Erkrie

yeah, and the answer was basically to ignore any pregnant person who is not a woman and define them out of existance.

All pregnant humans are women. That is biological fact.

That is so far form the legal decision it must hurt to actually type it.

Your issue is that you are trying to bluff a group of women who have read and discussed that case and it's ruling.

We know what was actually said, how the ruling was actually worded!

(In terms of adult human females, that is).

Any minor human who is pregnant is a girl.

’Gender identity’ does not, and should not, come into it.

@Ninkanink

All pregnant humans are women. That is biological fact.

Ok, so thats a different definition than others have on the thread, where most people think adulthood is a critical part of being a woman.

So (presumably) an 11 year old becomes a woman when she gets pregnant, if she has an abortion does she remain a woman, or does she stop being a woman once she is no longer pregnant?

yeah, and the answer was basically to ignore any pregnant person who is not a woman and define them out of existance.

Nope the words used are mother expectant mother and I think woman.
That covers any female who is pregnant and gives birth regardless of age or identity.

@Ninkanink

Ah, just seen your update.

So basically, all human females who are pregnant are women, except the ones that arent.

Thats helpful...

I have already qualified my statement as applying to human females that have reached majority.

All humans that are pregnant are of the female sex. Girl, woman, mother.

As others have said your use of a pregnant minor to provide your ineffectual ‘gotcha’ is distasteful.

You carry on though. You’re only highlighting the absurdity of your position.