AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

[LastRoloIsMine]

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

If the language used in legislation harms no one, why change it? If it matters so little then why get so enraged that women want to keep the words that are accurate terms and definitions?
Of course language matters, especially in legislation. New terms can be used as well as sex based terms of replacing them.

When you talk about pregnant person instead of woman or mother you are inviting all people to participate in pregnancy. Inviting all people to have a say in pregnancy & women's bodies.

This then opens up men into having more of a say about pregnancy and maternity when it's really got very little to do with them. It's a woman's issue and it affects woman and their bodies and lives. woman should be mentioned in legislation dealing with these specific issues. Who on earth would object to that? What the fuck is going on?

And by the way in case you missed it, every single person who has ever lived on this planet ever, was grown and birthed by a woman, a mother. Without one single exception.

A woman is a specific type of person being an adult human female. When that female person takes up an entire class, being the only type of person who can give birth and become a mother it's perfectly reasonable and essential even to use the correct words to refer to her. Not using the correct word to describe her is erasure.

Nothing about this is controversial. Or at least it shouldn't be.

@AnnaPotter

You’re being ridiculous. Your experience isn’t defined by legislation. If you consider ‘mother’ to be the right word for you then use it freely, as is your right. Whether legislation is trans-inclusive it not doesn’t affect your ability to do so in the slightest.

She is not being ridiculous

What was ridiculous as the word “woman” being excluded in legislation about pregnancy

ooohbriefcase

Are you a mother or a person that birthed?

@AnnaPotter

Woolly truisms like ‘language has meaning’ are pointless. What actual harm do you envisage? In the mumsnet echo chamber you might find a hundred people willing to say ‘you’re so right’ and save you the effort of actually thinking, but I want to know exactly what damage would be done to you by legislation using the term ‘pregnant person’ rather than ‘mother’?

And what harm do you think it's going to happen by correctly referring to the people who have birthed every single human being who has ever lived as woman and/or mother?

@therocinante

How would your employment rights be affected by being referred to as a pregnant person, rather than a mother?

"A pregnant person is entitled to leave after giving birth" - fine. "A pregnant person is entitled to time off for appointments" - again, can't see how not using 'mother' makes absolutely any difference there.

It's a legal lie again, isnt it? Only human females can fall pregnant, not a human person. To recognise gender over sex again is hugely regressive and is another small was that woman are being erased from their own sex. Pregnancy is not a gender issue, it is a sex one. There is enough blurring of lines between these terms but it is imperative to keep them separate.

@JackieWeaversZoomAc

What agenda is served by not referring to people who bare children as mothers and woman? It's really not an agenda that deserves any say in the wording of this legislation.

Pregnancy maternity and motherhood has fuck all to do with transgender rights. It's 200% about women's rights, motherhood and women's place in society. Language is important. We have language that has meaning and it should be used properly especially in our legislation.

Totally agree!!!

To those struggling with why this is important, it's actually fairly simple.

If I say 'some people' are discriminated against in employment, healthcare, the justice system or anything else and it needs sorting, the first thing that should be asked is which people and for what reason.

If my response is just some 'people' are denied access to effective healthcare, some 'people' are denied jobs, some 'people' are denied suitable housing or some 'people' are denied access to justice, how effective do you think the solutions will be?

You can't solve discrimination and oppression against groups of people if you don't know who they are or can't describe them accurately.

Any "person" who is pregnant is a woman, whether they identify as one or not. The language doesn't need bowdlerising to cater to a handful of people.

@AnnaPotter

So women aren't allowed to refer to themselves as women or use the usual womanly terminologies now??

Of course you fucking are. Where does it even remotely suggest that you can’t? Stop making shit up to suit your agenda.

Yes let's just reduce the argument to aggression and insults.

We are women not just people and we deserve rights.
But only mothers need to know about this according to your title.

This is an issue for all women. Not just those who have chosen to have children or been able to.

If all 7.8 billion people could give birth it wouldn't matter but only 51% are the sex that can. We are women not just people and we deserve rights.

And what rights are at issue here? What right do you currently have that wouldn’t exist if a piece of language used the phrase ‘pregnant person’?

@AnnaPotter

Woolly truisms like ‘language has meaning’ are pointless. What actual harm do you envisage? In the mumsnet echo chamber you might find a hundred people willing to say ‘you’re so right’ and save you the effort of actually thinking, but I want to know exactly what damage would be done to you by legislation using the term ‘pregnant person’ rather than ‘mother’?

What "actual harm" is there to not do it?

Language is very important when you need to understand something.

Most people can recognise the word mother in the country that they are living in even if they don't speak the language, the same can be said of the words woman and man.

If you start appealing to cervix-havers, people with a uterus, birthing people then you effectively eliminate the message to anyone who doesn't recognise those terms as meaning woman.

@Thelnebriati

If the language used in legislation harms no one, why change it? If it matters so little then why get so enraged that women want to keep the words that are accurate terms and definitions? Of course language matters, especially in legislation. New terms can be used as well as sex based terms of replacing them.

This, absolutely this.

@Thelnebriati

If the language used in legislation harms no one, why change it? If it matters so little then why get so enraged that women want to keep the words that are accurate terms and definitions? Of course language matters, especially in legislation. New terms can be used as well as sex based terms of replacing them.

This 100%

It’s obviously right that they changed it. Every man and woman discussing it in the Lords was born to a mother. It’s outrageous these things are even up for discussion.

You can see from the voting the large majority agree with you, so at least common sense reigns on here, despite the handful of angry zealots for the opposing side. Take heart.

It wouldn't have stopped those who wanted to as referring to themselves as mothers though

I’m off to feed my baby, so please use this opportunity to dig really deep and find an example of actual harm instead of a trite catch phrase for when I get back. If you haven’t, I’ll know it’s simply because you can’t.

@AnnaPotter

Endless meaningless word salad, designed to whip up anxiety and intolerance, but nothing remotely real or concrete. ‘Words have meanings!’ you shout, like it’s something profound instead of an endlessly trite phrase that conveys nothing more than fear and prejudice.

Name the specific harms you fear. If they existed, you could do so. What does it say about you that you can’t?

But the tolerance only works one way?

And what rights are at issue here? What right do you currently have that wouldn’t exist if a piece of language used the phrase ‘pregnant person’?

It's not just a piece of language, it's legislation.

@PurpleDaisies I have read many of your posts over the years and respect you very much, but I don't think this particular argument needs to happen here. I understand and agree with you:

This issue affects all women and not only those who have had children. And the title could be better worded.

But actually fertility services and all kinds of gynaecology, obstetrics and female-specific health issues are relevant here. Regardless of being a mother or not.

@MrsBrunch typo - I meant legislation.

As the House of Lords noted this week, the words woman & mother were important enough to use over 300 times in the debate around this legislation.

And then they wanted to leave the words out in the actual legislation itself. If the words woman and mother aren't important or relevant why did they even need to use those words in the debates about the legislation?