AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

[LastRoloIsMine]

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

I still haven't seen any reply as to what harm would be done by not changing it? What harm is being done to keep the word mother?

@AnnaPotter

You’re being ridiculous. Your experience isn’t defined by legislation. If you consider ‘mother’ to be the right word for you then use it freely, as is your right. Whether legislation is trans-inclusive it not doesn’t affect your ability to do so in the slightest.

Your experience isn't defined by legislation Of course it bloody is.

I think you will find that everyone's experiences are directly affected by legislation all the time, and in every aspect of their lives.

As women (and in the overwhelming majority), we have every reason to expect to be referred to as women and mothers because that's what we are, and that's what we want to be called. Nobody else should have the right to demand that we be called anything else, just because it suits their own personal agenda. It is absolutely absurd.

Sorry, I misunderstood that the leg hasn't gone through.

That's fine and I understand why, but also the vitriol around even the suggestion is a bit eye-rolly to me.

@AnnaPotter

You’re being ridiculous. Your experience isn’t defined by legislation. If you consider ‘mother’ to be the right word for you then use it freely, as is your right. Whether legislation is trans-inclusive it not doesn’t affect your ability to do so in the slightest.

"You're being ridiculous"

Not as ridiculous as replacing the word mother with "pregnant person".

And you're being bad mannered.

Trans men are mothers in law so this legislation includes them.
We dont need to change our language that gives us rights in law to make a tiny minority of mothers feelings not hurt.
Its ridiculous that we are even having to have this conversation but nothing really surprises me much anymore.

[quote Blackberrycream]@Labobo
Exactly. Protection of rights is just that.
I also don’t think that those shouting transphobia are speaking for all trans women and men.[/quote]
Nor do I. Most of the transpeople I know, both transwomen and transmen, are focused on getting on with their lives. They have no interest in the hatred or hysteria and the name calling and the accusations.

But man is gender neutral in English so why change chairman to chair person.

Equally then, why is it important to change from describing someone as 'man' to 'trans woman' if that person born male feels they want to change gender identity? Because that change of language is deemed very important by some people. I'm curious why the logic is different if you are saying 'man' is a gender neutral term?

I think it’s great that maternity services are taking steps to ensure that they make transmen as comfortable as possible when they access pregnancy services. It must be an incredibly jarring experience to believe with all your being that you are a man whilst you watch your pregnant belly grow and then have to give birth. I’m totally supportive of using language carefully in that situation so that their femaleness is not additionally drawn attention to unnecessarily.

Transmen need good quality care and compassion. It’s a very unique situation. This doesn’t mean that we have to wholesale change terminology for everything and everybody. To be fair, I think the recent guidelines on inclusive language in Brighton’s maternity services were only to be used in that precise situation and not generically throughout the service? Least that’s what I thought. I don’t believe they were expecting staff to use those terms for women engaging with the service as proud and out women? Prepared to be corrected on this.

But in answer to Anna’s question as to what ‘harm’ this replacement of the words ‘mother’ and ‘women’ can do just look at what happened today in North Lanarkshire because Women’s Aid would not widen their definition of ‘Women’ to include men? Funding shut off and truly vulnerable women, at risk of rape, murder and horrendous domestic violence (Increasingly in this pandemic) potentially deprived of or having less provision in terms of advice and a safe place to flee. And we’re talking about a hugely deprived, working class area absolutely decimated after the collapse of the coal and steel industries.

As someone very succinctly put it today (sorry can’t remember who it was and I may be slightly paraphrasing):

‘In order to be Protected by the Law, you need to be defined in the Law’

That’s no woolly aphorism - that’s hard fact.

@AnnaPotter

You’re being ridiculous. Your experience isn’t defined by legislation. If you consider ‘mother’ to be the right word for you then use it freely, as is your right. Whether legislation is trans-inclusive it not doesn’t affect your ability to do so in the slightest.

My experience isn't defined by legislation but my rights are. This is an exceptionally important step in the fight to reclaim women's sex based rights.

[quote Mockolate]@Labobo

In what way is mother not a perfectly acceptable term for transmen too?
Is it because motherhood is less interesting, more mundane than pregnant-personhood?

I'm not trans, but if you're a trans man, surely you can see that it's not because they think they're being well edgy or something and want to be more interesting than motherhood, just that as a trans man they should get to be seen as one?
Or should they be told not to be so bloody daft, you're not a trans man, get over it, you're a woman?
[/quote]
But they are not being told they are a woman. They are being told they are a mother. The word exists and is specific to motherhood which is what a pregnant transman is embarking on. Can you explain to me why this word is problematic to a transman?

How does this effect me personally?

RISE, my local refuge and service for women dealing with trauma and abuse, has just lost its funding. They've served Brighton for 26 years and have a reputation that's second to none. They are trusted - and deliver - services to women and had a specialist LGBT service.

They just lost the contract to a faceless large national provider. Why? Because they don't provide services for men. Even though they said they'd be happy to in the tender process.

brightonriseup.wordpress.com/

Similarly, Monkland's Women's Aid in Scotland has just lost its funding because the local council decoded to "broaden their inclusivity" to fill "identified gaps": services for men and perpetrator programmes.

mobile.twitter.com/MonklandsWA/status/1364659781743616002

In Canada, a women's refuge that wants to be female only comes under constant attack - even having a dead rat pinned to the door.

This is part of the same thing. There is a pushback against women's rights going on right now. Anything that's for women only is being framed as exclusive, privileged, bigoted. Even the very words we use to describe ourselves.

We have to stand against it, else before we know it, we will lose the rights we've had for so little time and will be unable to legally meet to talk about it or even have words to describe us as a group.

The Hate Crime Bill currently going through in Scotland will potentially be used to criminalise women sitting at home, talking about women's rights.

This stuff is happening, right now.

Baroness Deech -

"by supporting these amendments, let us reinforce clarity, precision and dignity in language, preserve the special status of women in childbearing and motherhood, follow precedent and simply show some common sense. I thank the noble person, Lord True, for all that he has done in this respect, and I hope that he does not get trolled. I commend these amendments to your persons’ House.

Please excuse my ignorance but what exactly is the issue and what is the proposed solution? Is there indeed an issue?

Or is this a solution looking for a problem?

Is this yet more blended newly discovered/created/ sex changed / blended / hybrid / in-between "genders" rainbow identity politics or is it actually quasi discriminatory or inequitable? Who is being unfairly treated?

I can't keep up with these new genders!? What's next?

I cannot stress this enough.

Until 100 years ago women did not have rights. At all!

We were non men. All non men including children did not matter in law and therefore in society.

Women died in the fight to have us recognised in law which meant we were recognised in society. If you remove the word women from the law we will soon loose our rights and our place in society.

All those women who say "it doesn't matter to me" do so from a privileged position. Read up on womens history and learn why you enjoy such a position.

Well no because the trans man parent would just celebrate on fathers day
Nah. No father ever, in the history of all mammals, pushed a human being out of his vagina. Can you even imagine how long he would wear the Dressing Gown of Doom if that had happened??

You are not being unreasonable. It was a victory and one well earned and deserved.

AnnaPotter

You’re being ridiculous. Your experience isn’t defined by legislation. If you consider ‘mother’ to be the right word for you then use it freely, as is your right. Whether legislation is trans-inclusive it not doesn’t affect your ability to do so in the slightest.

It's a complete contradiction to claim that your experience isn't defined by legislation but then insist that legislation be changed to suit the experience of transmen who get pregnant.

I would love to know the actual numbers of transmen who give birth compared to the number of women who give birth, are we changing legislation to suit 1/2 people out of millions that give birth? Is that necessary? Why should women be airbrushed from legislation? Why can't 'mother/pregnant person' be used so as to not offend anyone?

I can't imagine that a midwife or doctor would keep addressing a male presenting person as 'mum' they would use their common sense, we don't need to erase the word woman.

Language evolves and changes, once the majority of people speak and spell words a specific way they become the common and accepted usage.
However the converse is also true, breast-feeding, pregnant women, mothers, women menstruate. The women represented call themselves these words, and the meaning is clear.
If a very small group, of trans men want to use different words for themselves and their experiences that is absolutely fine by me, HOWEVER they have no right to change the language which women use about themselves, and any legislation should reflect the more common (& biological correct) usage.
Have a few paragraphs/clause to explain there are a small sub-group of biological women who identify as trans men, and the legislation also includes that specific group too.
Job done.

If anyone wants to get an idea of the passion of this debate, listen to Lord Hunt in the Lords today. Lots of really well informed peers spoke, but Lord Hunt was my favourite today.

This link should hopefully go straight to his bit:

parliamentlive.tv/event/index/3ca1efa2-16a5-489d-a5a0-5d929bff81f6?in=14:36:24

Pc culture is about the destruction of the family. The reduction/removal of people's rights.

You are on to something there, and it's very worrying indeed. There has to be something (and funding) behind all of this madness, otherwise it just doesn't make any sense

Happy parent person with a cervix unless you don't have a cervix but once did day

Very catchy!

I'm sorry but why would a woman who wants to be a man ever get pregnant and give birth? Surely if you are so determined to be a guy, that's the last thing you would want to do?
You can't have it both ways! Or maybe you can. Women are constantly discriminated against for being mother or being able to become mothers. Patronised, belittled and ignored. Maybe if I had known there was a choice I might have gone for the dude option. Get the experience of having a baby without the annoying discrimination and being patronised. The doctor called me a "good girl" when I was in labour the first time. Perhaps if I had known I could be a bloke I would have punched him in the face.

There aren't any equivalent bills suggesting getting rid of the word men, can anyone suggest why that might be?

Also, why, today, did Lib Dem peer Baronness Baker stand up and give an impassioned speech about how she thought everyone was being mean to transwomen by implying they're a threat to women, when NO ONE had even mentioned transwomen. This was about maternity. Transwomen weren't at all relevant.

Now, why did she do that?...

Back to the conspiracy theory again, maybe people just want to be themselves?
That's twice you've alluded to a great big conspiracy, *turqoisewaters - my opinion (going to nab my teen's phrasing of things here, apols, but "I really don't think it's that deep bro" for want of a better phrase)

Chevy Don't look for logic. Never look for logic!