AIBU to tell every mother on mumsnet...

[LastRoloIsMine]

We nearly lost the word mother and all that comes with it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4176497-History-in-the-making-Watch-Parliament-Live-at-2-30pm

The maternity bill wanted to remove the word mother/woman and replace it with pregnant person.
Those words are important and women have fought for a century to be recognised yet we were nearly wiped out in favour of belief not fact.

I wont say "I am not transphobic" like some sort of plea! I dont actually have to I am just fighting for womens rights no need for me to explain myself any further.

Any takers? What harm is being done to keep the word women?

For those saying 'pregnant person' is only for transmen in maternity units whilst giving birth and chestfeeding etc, that's not true - it's creeping into other places. I've seen it on FB women's advice groups, so called feminist influencers using it. Once one person says 'pregnant person' everyone then parrots them.

Pc culture is about the destruction of the family

Sorry, forgot to add, what's PC culture?
That comment''s exactly the same argument trotted out towards gay/lesbian couples, that being "too PC" or "PC Gawn Mad" or whatever is letting gay people have babies and it's destructing families.

The Hate Crime Bill currently going through in Scotland will potentially be used to criminalise women sitting at home, talking about women's rights

This is insane

Just now it's seemingly acceptable to say the same things towards trans people.

Mockolate

Its not a conspiracy theory.
If you have been involved in this for long enough it quickly becomes clear white men are driving this train. I want give my thoughts on why as no doubt I will be reported for hate speech

However womens concerns are not conspiracy, delusions or hysterical thoughts. Women are smart educated beings with the ability to think rationally and we see whats happening.

@tobee

Any takers? What harm is being done to keep the word women?

It's really disappointing that nobody has answered this. It's so damaging to a really important conversation around language and legislation but doesn't seem to be something anyone pushing for language to be changed can explain. If it doesn't matter what wording is used, why does it need to be changed?

The Hate Crime Bill currently going through in Scotland will potentially be used to criminalise women sitting at home, talking about women's rights

Such as?
Like we're doing now, discussing online you mean, or do you mean something else?

I really don't think it's that deep bro

It has to be deep. And you certainly need deep pockets to generate this level of mayhem

I don't see this as taking away the rights of women to be called mothers. Rather those who are biologically female and are pregnant but don't identify with the gender e.g. someone who identifies as non binary.

I think sometimes things like this people jump to the conclusion that it is men taking away the female/mother identify when this change could have come from those who don't see themselves as females so maybe the title of mother doesn't feel right for them either as most people associate the word mother with being female.

Such as?
Like we're doing now, discussing online you mean, or do you mean something else?

Yes.

I have been called transphobic on this thread for discussing a maternity law. I could be reported for hate speech. I could be arrested, investigated have my social media dissected and ultimately have a criminal record. All because I talked about women's rights being for women.

The word woman risks being a hate crime if not said to include all 7.8 billion people.

It is not a 'belief' as you call it. Religion is a 'belief', the tooth fairy is a 'belief'.

Legislation and the term 'pregnant person' affects you in no way at all.

That's twice you've alluded to a great big conspiracy, turqoisewaters - my opinion (going to nab my teen's phrasing of things here, apols, but "I really don't think it's that deep bro" for want of a better phrase)*

Can't speak for other people but I find it absolutely bizarre that an issue that affects a tiny number of people has become so prominent that laws are being changed, that the rights of women are being so casually thrown away.

And generally I think most conspiracy theories are a load of bollocks because humans just aren't that ....competent? Organised? Arsed?

So I think that to reach the stage where laws are being changed to appease such a minority it is a combination of TRAs with an agenda manipulating certain people in authority who either have little interest in the issue or who take the path of least resistance they don't want to attract death/rape threats ,

@AnnaPotter

Endless meaningless word salad, designed to whip up anxiety and intolerance, but nothing remotely real or concrete. ‘Words have meanings!’ you shout, like it’s something profound instead of an endlessly trite phrase that conveys nothing more than fear and prejudice.

Name the specific harms you fear. If they existed, you could do so. What does it say about you that you can’t?

Words in law do have meanings and definition. Mother, in law specifically includes Transmen who have had children, so it is not excluding the trans people that matter.

However, the use of chest-feeding, cervix havers and this sort of so-called inclusive language, excludes far more people than it includes. The people it excludes are those people who are disadvantaged in our society, as English is not their first language. It excludes the older people who would understand that women should have a smear test, but not that cervix-havers should have one. You are speaking from a wonderfully privileged position (and I’m truly happy for you) but the women it harms are not in this position and are far more numerous than the trans population.

Appropriation of female language and symbols, to restrict women, has happened for centuries. It is interesting that there is very little appropriation on male language. Men is still allowed - they are asked to have prostate checks.

Language appropriation does matter. The people who believe TWAW must define women as anyone who identifies as a woman, or feels feminine. The people who believe TW are men define women as adult human female. The definition of Woman is a key and fundamental differencey. The attempt to appropriate the word woman leaves a gap for the group of adult human female. It does you no credit to minimise the fear some women feel about the appropriation of their language.

so maybe the title of mother doesn't feel right for them either as most people associate the word mother with being female.

And thats fine. They can ask to be referred to as....for their healthcare. This is not about politeness. This bill is about the law and who that relates to and why.

That's twice you've alluded to a great big conspiracy
Just for the puberty blockers and the mastectomies plus the combined impact of needing life lomg treatments after that, there is far too much money to make. That before we even begging to track major trails.
Always follow the money.

I find the non women words really offensive and objectifying. I imagine anyone who identifies as LGBTQ or BAME can appreciate the power and importance of a name, and making sure that name doesn’t degrade or disrespect the person it refers to. Fair enough if women collectively want to be called something else but we don’t. We chose the words women and mother and anything else referring to us simply as humans with reproductive organs is offensive and demeaning.

@ConstantlySeekingHappiness

It’s interesting how dreadfully important language is when talking about trans people.

But apparently so completely unimportant when talking about women...

Strange that.

So very true.

There was a case in 2015 where a woman who was still breastfeeding and asked for access to a lactation room to express (it was locked) was bullied out of her job.
She lost her tribunal because it was ruled that it wasnt sex discrimination because men can lactate too.

If you dont think the word woman in relation to pregnancy and childcare has meaning then shit like this happens.

slate.com/human-interest/2015/02/angela-ames-sex-discrimination-case-breast-feeding-mom-loses-because-men-can-lactate-too.html

@Thelnebriati

This is nonsense;

8 out of 10 people under 40 will get pregnant within a year if they have sex without contraception regularly

This completely explains why it matter. Excellent comment, thanks.

Good. Only women can be pregnant, to say people is fucking ridiculous.

Given this site is predominantly your sex is set and can't be changed the op is complaing that some women don't want to be called mothers and is demanding that their wishes be ignored and they be called it anyway

Your sex is set, that is biological reality. OP hasn't said that, she is on about the terminology in legislation.

If it doesn't matter what wording is used, why does it need to be changed?

I agree it doesn't need to be changed. Similarly, I don't think if it had been, it would've meant we "lost the word mother and all that comes with it".

I think the vast majority of people don't know and don't give a shit what terminology some piece of legislation uses. Nobody (sane) is gonna stop using the word mother just because a legal document doesn't.

@Octane

If it doesn't matter what wording is used, why does it need to be changed?

I agree it doesn't need to be changed. Similarly, I don't think if it had been, it would've meant we "lost the word mother and all that comes with it".

I think the vast majority of people don't know and don't give a shit what terminology some piece of legislation uses. Nobody (sane) is gonna stop using the word mother just because a legal document doesn't.

But it sets a precedent. This particular legislation makes no odds in itself for the vast majority of people as it's specific to an occupation; but it's the implications of it and the reach that could have had. To hear people speak about it in parliament as well is amazing.

I genuinely worry we will end up in a situation where biology ceases to be recognised and will be replaced by gender identity. There will be no laws against sex based discrimination and if you identify as a woman it is because you chose it and therefore chose your own subjugation.