Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

Juneau no one has argued they are exactly the same.

But women were owned as property for thousands of years. Bought and sold, traded, the rape of your wife was perfectly legal until the 90s in the UK.

Sexism and racism should never play top trumps, especially as the two overlap, but that doesnt mean racism is the only discrimination or opression to exist.

Another Drag thread on MN?!
Hasn't been one for a few weeks, was about time for another one lol!
Oh and thank yoooo, you've just reminded me it's 7pm, it's Thursday, and Drag Race UK is about to start!

BRB later lol

@JuneauBound

I see the argument you're making OP but I am of the opinion that racism and sexism are different. They have different histories, different sensitivities and both are hugely complex.

I have no way to know on this forum, but I would bet that most people arguing equivalency are white women. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

@Notimeforaname you are the only person I have seen on this forum who has explicitly stated your experience of both racism and sexism and you find the comparison offensive.

To me this argument that racism and sexism are exactly the same in all circumstances and can be used interchangeably is lazy, and maybe the result of lots of white feminists primarily speaking into an echo chamber of other white feminists.

It's just a theory, and of course - maybe the original poster is a black woman, but I somehow doubt that.

Cinnamon buns also said the same thing, and is black.

I find it very, very odd that woman post on a public forum or express in real life that drag queens is as offensive to them as racism.

Yes, absolutely, women have been oppressed, raped, murdered, etc. Nobody is moving away from that.

But this relentless drive to try and compare men wearing a dress and clowning about to racism, really gets me.

@PheasantPlucker1

Juneau no one has argued they are exactly the same.

But women were owned as property for thousands of years. Bought and sold, traded, the rape of your wife was perfectly legal until the 90s in the UK.

Sexism and racism should never play top trumps, especially as the two overlap, but that doesnt mean racism is the only discrimination or opression to exist.

Nobody has ever said it is -i don't see many threads about racism but misogny is shoe horned into pretty much every other one.

Nobody is claiming racism is the only one.

@MorganKitten

What's a bio queen?
(Genuinely curious, new one on me )

I also think 'women' is, correct me if I'm wrong, the only group where as a woman I am routinely told that I have to have certain opinions or I'm misognystic and happy to offend other woman etc and I must think a b and c.

'all black people must think' 'all disabled people must ' 'all gay people do'

Still OK?

Downwiththatsortofthing none at all!

I stated that earlier. Im hugely in favour of males wearing whatever they want. I feel better with makeup on, why shouldnt men wear it too?

Its the pretending to be women thats the offensive part.

@cinammonbuns sorry I missed your post! I think this thread is offensive and misses an obvious opportunity to have the question answered by people who know: are minstrel shows and drag shows the same? No!

[quote cinammonbuns]@JuneauBound I am also a black woman who has commented and explained why I find blackface more offensive than drag and don’t believe they should be compared at all. Unsurprisingly nobody has replied to somebody who is actually affected by both these issues.[/quote]
Peak white feminism.

Juneau so can you explain why pretending to be a member of one group is ok, but not the other?

I don't particularly like women on TV who pretend to be stupid and ditzy or argumentative o make money. I think it sets us back years.

However, I don't demand that Gemma Collins is never allowed on TV ever again because her actions offend me.

I don't call someone who disagrees with me a misogynist. I accept that we are not one category of people and have different opinions and thats fine.

To me drag artists are not parodying women, they are something else. Fwiw I find them entertaining.

@PheasantPlucker1

So you don't have any issue with the drag queens who aren't pretending to be women then?

Would women pretending to be men be OK then?

Or is it only against the oppressed groups (of which white straight men are pretty much the only ones who haven't been)

Whilst misogyny/sexism/attacks on women are still seen as lesser than racism and bigotry, then the abuse of girls and women will never really be fought against. It's not just about the 'big issues', as with any other oppression, the namecalling, the harmful stereotypes, what we are told to accept as 'ok' or 'just take it as a joke' has to be spoken out against as well.

Drag takes the piss out of women. If it wouldn't be as entertaining if 'they just did it as men' then it's only entertaining because they are mocking women. They are not effeminate men, they are just men, who have taken the 'gay men are effeminate' line and are using it as a middle finger to what they think women are - not to the men who called them such. It is nothing more than a sarcastic response - 'you think we're women? This is how we see women, and it's not pretty or nice'.

even though drag orginates from shakesphere and I wonder if you would be against you kids learning about shakesphere plays in school?

'Othello' is Shakespeare, too, and has been played by white actors with blackface. Agreeing that blackface should not happen doesn't mean I think children shouldn't study Shakespeare plays at school.

Men playing women in Shakespeare plays has no bearing on men doing drag in the 21st century.

Haven't read the thread as it is very long but my view of Drag is that its shit, offensive and talentless. Would never go to a drag show. It's vile. But clearly no-one cares when women are offended because men want to do it. I guess blackface might still be going on if they'd only targeted women.

@BrumBoo

Whilst misogyny/sexism/attacks on women are still seen as lesser than racism and bigotry, then the abuse of girls and women will never really be fought against. It's not just about the 'big issues', as with any other oppression, the namecalling, the harmful stereotypes, what we are told to accept as 'ok' or 'just take it as a joke' has to be spoken out against as well.

Drag takes the piss out of women. If it wouldn't be as entertaining if 'they just did it as men' then it's only entertaining because they are mocking women. They are not effeminate men, they are just men, who have taken the 'gay men are effeminate' line and are using it as a middle finger to what they think women are - not to the men who called them such. It is nothing more than a sarcastic response - 'you think we're women? This is how we see women, and it's not pretty or nice'.

I don't think it's about misogny being less serious Brum . I've agreed with most of your posts.

I think it's the fact that people don't feel drag queens are comparable to racism.

I'd half agree if these shows were a group of men sitting around laughing at the women, but the majority of judges on these programmes are women.

@Campervan69

Haven't read the thread as it is very long but my view of Drag is that its shit, offensive and talentless. Would never go to a drag show. It's vile. But clearly no-one cares when women are offended because men want to do it. I guess blackface might still be going on if they'd only targeted women.

It's quite clearly not that no one cares. The thread is evenly split.

Your last sentence is offensive.

We really have to stop holding up women as this poor defenceless group who are just always the victims of absolutely everything. It doesn't do feminism any favours.

XDownwiththissortofthingX assuming they arent offending any other group, so no racism or disablism and so on, then no.
No problem at all.

Though I really cant picture drag robots! Im curious to see that one.

@PheasantPlucker1 so it's just about any group then? Pretending to be a Tory for comedic effect when you're a liberal?

It's not just that, is it. It's about whether black face is as bad as drag. Both are about history (as you've stated, mistreatment of women and mistreatment of Black people). But those histories are different and therefore things like impersonations have a different effect and shouldn't be evaluated in black and white terms.

If you want to argue that drag is bad, that's fine, but don't base your argument on a foundation of racism and sexism being equal and interchangeable.

Something which seems quite different when using the blackface comparison is that the vast majority of people who seem to enjoy watching drag appear to be women. I don't think blackface garnered similar fandom from black people...

@PheasantPlucker1

So if a drag queen told you in person that they weren't pretending to be a woman, and that the drag was merely a part of their own persona, you'd disregard that if the drag act looked sufficiently woman-like to you, and judge it to be offensive?

See, this is why I asked the question of my friends, and why, when they both answered along the same lines, i.e. it's absolutely nothing to do with pretending to be a woman, that not only do I believe them, but it also confirms what I've always felt about drag, and reaffirms why I shouldn't be offended by it.

Was just coming on to say about Drag Kings, but it's already been covered. Not to mention transmen drag queens. Not as simple as you make out in the OP, and very clumsy and lazy to directly compare to minstrels.

Juneau "pretending to be a Tory when youre a liberal."

In my opinion it depends how its done. Just to be funny, great. If you have to start being offensive, no. For me it is the difference between laughing with, and laughing at.

Theres also the point of priviledge. Im white. My sister makes jokes about her race and culture that I wouldnt repeat, as its not my race or culture.

I agree with you that racism and sexism are not the same, or comparable.

But that doesnt change the fact I think both blackface and womanface are wrong.