Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

@Zevia

Something which seems quite different when using the blackface comparison is that the vast majority of people who seem to enjoy watching drag appear to be women. I don't think blackface garnered similar fandom from black people...

Women have been brainwashed and gaslighted their entire existence to 'be kind' and 'take a joke'. Otherwise we're 'Karens' who must be horrible, nasty old hags, and just get angry for the sake of it. You see it in variations on MN - someone's husband is texting a woman to highly inappropriate levels, going away on friendly weekends for a 'shared hobby', he's liking all her social media. A large group of 'cool girls' will come along to tell the OP that she's being ridiculous, practically abusive to deny him a female friend, she should mind her own, poor bloke has done nothing wrong, their husband's are always going off with female friends and they're fiiinnneee with it.... it's the same mentality in general society. Women be nice, play along because you do not want to be seen as the one having a contrary opinion to a situation, even if you're getting the shit end of the deal. If you point out how stupidly unfair or wrong it is, you will be the one who pays for it one way or another.

Everybody say LOVE!

Firstly, what the hell is an 'effeminate man'? Because whatever the answer, they're not women.

I dont think anyone is arguing with you there. Drag queens have never claimed to actually be women. I'm confused as to what your point is here.
Surely you must know what the word effeminate means? Surely? Its distinct from woman and/or female, but basically means behaving and/or dressing in a (historically) feminine way.

All the fighting that gay men have done against being seen as 'women', grouped in with the women, that being gay equals being 'effeminate' -
the drag culture is as harmful to the average gay man as it is to women for the harmful stereotypes it brings as the attitudes as above still exist.

I have a lot to say about this. But I might come back to it later. Nor feeling eloquent. Spent far too long typing and deleting.

Again, why do drags have to appropriate being female to stick up a finger to society? How is it always so brave to be a woman under every guise, and have a voice under that guise, unless you're an actual woman at which point having a voice automatically makes you a nuisance?

Both natal women and transwomen perform drag. They're loved by the community too. Nobody calls them a nuisance.

Why can't they be men who like makeup and silly costumes, performing their talent whilst being the men they are?

They do wear make up and silly costumes while being men. That's the whole point of drag. Everyone knows they're actually men. Often (but obviously not always) the man behind the make up is camp too.
Do you suggest they butch themselves up?
Is being themselves perpetuating stereotypes?

The point of disliking stereotypes isn't that people aren't allowed to be that way. It's that people shouldn't be expected to be that way. Camp men and us folk that like are very aware that masculine gay men exist.
I dont wear make up or high heels and I'll be damned if i say that a woman who does both is 'perpetuating stereotypes'

More pretending it's just men having a bit of fun than accepting they are just taking the piss and getting away with it.

One of my pals is a drag queen who impersonate an alien type creature. Amazing make up. No fake boobs. Bares a hairy chest whilst performing. Still a drag queen.

That should say 'us folk that like drag....brain fog

Notimeforaname perfect compromise. Imitate other men, robots, aliens, whatever you want.

Just dont punch down and everyone would be happy!

Im guessing it takes far more skill and talent to pull off a show like that than to put on a dress and make fish jokes, however, so unlikely to happen.

'Cool girl', the banal mumsnet insult of choice for a woman who doesn't subscribe religiously to some ridiculous set of arbitrary boundaries that appear to be defined exclusively by other women who automatically assume the worst of every man.

It's risible.

@PheasantPlucker1

Juneau "pretending to be a Tory when youre a liberal."

In my opinion it depends how its done. Just to be funny, great. If you have to start being offensive, no. For me it is the difference between laughing with, and laughing at.

Theres also the point of priviledge. Im white. My sister makes jokes about her race and culture that I wouldnt repeat, as its not my race or culture.

I agree with you that racism and sexism are not the same, or comparable.

But that doesnt change the fact I think both blackface and womanface are wrong.

Thanks for your answer @PheasantPlucker1 I fully agree with you that racism and sexism are not comparable.

Would you agree it's offensive to say "drag shows are the new minstrel shows" and we should, as feminists, agree to work to discourage that sort of equivalency?

@PheasantPlucker1

Notimeforaname perfect compromise. Imitate other men, robots, aliens, whatever you want.

Just dont punch down and everyone would be happy!

Im guessing it takes far more skill and talent to pull off a show like that than to put on a dress and make fish jokes, however, so unlikely to happen.

So is imitating other men Ok? I've asked s few times why thats different to imitating any other group in society.

Is it ok if I dress up and take the piss out of other women?

Yanbu. I find drag really rather offensive these days.

Im guessing it takes far more skill and talent to pull off a show like that than to put on a dress and make fish jokes, however, so unlikely to happen.

Drag is SO MUCH MORE than dresses and fish jokes.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Drag was born out of the (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of gay and effeminate men. A middle finger from the oppressed class to society.

Minstrels were born out of the hatred and (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of black individuals.
A middle finger from society to the oppressed class.

Can you see the difference?

Drag has always been, and is especially nowadays, an art form that often goes beyond "dressing as a woman." As a PP said, you'll see aliens, robots and bald heads among the feminine forms. Besides which, I find it difficult to see it as mocking when they're covered in beautiful costumes and make up I couldn't even attempt.

Gay men have called each other 'sister', 'she' etc for generations outside of drag.

Yup! You nailed it.

Mind you, it's all for nothing I'm afraid.
Some people just have to be offended, how dare you take away their right to feel victimised.
Why, drag is as bad as racism, didn't you know?

Yes, women are still being treated appallingly all over the world, no question.
Drag is NOT the problem though.
Ridiculous thread.

Winner of Ru Paul a few years ago, Sasha Velour (including a drag King look of his)

so the opinion of people who don't find drag offensive seems to be based on at least one of the following:

"drag isn't offensive to ME, I find it it funny, and that makes it okay."
"drag isn't like Blackface, because black people were oppressed people, whereas women are not oppressed, and they're not doing the feminist cause any favours by casting themselves as oppressed"
"somewhere out there is a woman in TV channel 4119 impersonating a man, so therefore it's okay for men to create a whole industry out of impersonating a sexualised version of women and thereby creating an unhealthy stereotype of them (and making fun of them.)"

So overall, clearly, women are to blame. For wanting to be treated with respect and not being a good sport. I guess we should just grow balls. Then we could do drag, at least. Because that takes balls.
I

@Annalouisa

so the opinion of people who don't find drag offensive seems to be based on at least one of the following:

"drag isn't offensive to ME, I find it it funny, and that makes it okay."
"drag isn't like Blackface, because black people were oppressed people, whereas women are not oppressed, and they're not doing the feminist cause any favours by casting themselves as oppressed"
"somewhere out there is a woman in TV channel 4119 impersonating a man, so therefore it's okay for men to create a whole industry out of impersonating a sexualised version of women and thereby creating an unhealthy stereotype of them (and making fun of them.)"

So overall, clearly, women are to blame. For wanting to be treated with respect and not being a good sport. I guess we should just grow balls. Then we could do drag, at least. Because that takes balls.
I

This is what I mean. Constantly making women out to be the victims. Of everything. All the time.

Nobody has said women aren't oppressed, btw.

RootyToot Ive answered that several times.

Is ok for a white man to impersonate another white man? I assume so. Unless a white man says otherwise, but thats not my place to say.

It isnt ok for a white man to impersonate a group that is more opressed, black men, women, disabled people.

@Ijustreallywantacat you and others are still missing the point. These men can and should be able to dress and entertain as they please. The issue is when they appropriate being female to do so. They are not female, what they do as an act doesn't represent women at all. That's where the offence is. Being a woman isn't something you play-act, as much as being black, or gay or any other group. That's where the comparison comes in, because when other people who are not gay or black or disabled or any other oppressed group play these labels for cheaps laughs then they're are rightly condemned for it. As with everything else in society, it's only when it's done to women that the exact opposite reaction occurs, it's not seen as offensive it's seen as 'just a joke'. Exact same situation, complete opposite treatment.

I'd always assumed I was supposed to like it but felt uncomfortable- the New Orleans drag shows I've gone to were a combination of great singing combined with really mean insults to guests that were supposed to be funny but seemed to miss the mark. Biting comedy done right can be smart and hilarious. But drag insults often are just cruel.

@RootyT00t

Nobody has said women aren't oppressed, btw.

No, they're saying that women are less oppressed than other groups. Which is simply untrue.

So overall, clearly, women are to blame. For wanting to be treated with respect and not being a good sport. I guess we should just grow balls. Then we could do drag, at least. Because that takes balls.

Blame for what?!

R00ty is right. Drag, and drag culture (as in the men behind the drag) is just not about women.
For once, it's not about us. Its about the people behind the costumes. People who have been brutalised and beaten and shamed and oppressed for as long as history remembers.

As Ru Paul said, it's about rejecting masculinity.

And yes, you can do drag. As people have been trying to say for the entire thread, DRAG KINGS AND BIO QUEENS EXIST.

It's rumoured that we'll have them on Ru Paul in the next couple of seasons.

I love drag. Mad about it. My children love watching it too. I was unaware it was so contentious and considered misogynistic. I thought that people who had strong negative feelings about it were being homophobic. Anyway I love drag and it’s time for my opinion now because she’s already done had herses.

I will believe its not about us the day these men stop pretending to be us and stop ridiculing us.

Can you explain what you mean by 'pretending to be us'?

Who's us? And what do we be like?

I think anything that brings joy to other people, whether it's the shy often bullied in school men that end up doing drag for confidence, or the people in the auidence that get a laugh, it's a good thing.

Blackface, bear baiting, cock fighting, public hangings, freak shows, the Coliseum.

They all brought joy to a certain type of person. The argument that something that brings joy can only be good is quite frankly, appalling.