Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

Two men ask to be referred to as women and you say theyre not pretending to be women?

Can you explain that, as Im lost.

Third time asking: Why are there few (if any!) bio kings, that is men dressing up as men to mock men. I don’t mean drag queens who occasionally dress as a famous man, I mean a man whose whole act is mocking male culture, especially straight male culture.

Ah but for me it's not 'just as bad'
So that'll be why I'm fine with it. Its grand to have differing opinions.

It's not a different opinion, the oppression of women has been comparably as bad as any other oppressed group in history. Being systematically raped, murdered and denied equal rights just for being born female - how can any group say 'well we had/have it worse' . Treated just as badly, yes but worse? Bizarre to think that your 'opinion' trumps that truth.

Two men ask to be referred to as women and you say theyre not pretending to be women?

Can you explain that, as Im lost its acting. Playing a part. For a performance on stage.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Drag was born out of the (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of gay and effeminate men. A middle finger from the oppressed class to society.

Minstrels were born out of the hatred and (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of black individuals.
A middle finger from society to the oppressed class.

Can you see the difference?

Drag has always been, and is especially nowadays, an art form that often goes beyond "dressing as a woman." As a PP said, you'll see aliens, robots and bald heads among the feminine forms. Besides which, I find it difficult to see it as mocking when they're covered in beautiful costumes and make up I couldn't even attempt.

Gay men have called each other 'sister', 'she' etc for generations outside of drag.

RootyToot have you shared that opinion with Twat LaRouge?

Do you consider it mysoginistic fpr him to use that language, or just when feminists do it?

Some women are so clueless they just do not see or choose not to see the underlying sexism and misogyny. They usually belong to the same class of people that also think that because they dont mind having a male person doing a cervical smear, neither should anyone else. What is that ? Lack of empathy , a type of sociopathy?

@PheasantPlucker1

RootyToot have you shared that opinion with Twat LaRouge?

Do you consider it mysoginistic fpr him to use that language, or just when feminists do it?

I use the word regularly so it would be silly for me to be offended by it.

I just found it a strange word to use by someone so offended by drag queens.

@Devlesko

Drag queens have been in existance for centuries, nothing like the B&W Minstrells, give your head a wobble. Poor old Widow Twanky, what has she done to you Do you feel the same about a principle boy being a girl?

Morris dancers have blacked up for centuries but that is still seen as unacceptable by some even though it's nothing to do with impersonating different races whereas drag as impersonating women. I find that more offensive than Morris dancers who black up because it was historically a disguise so their employers didn't know who they were. there is evidence for blacking up as far back as the 17th century.

@Flapjak

Some women are so clueless they just do not see or choose not to see the underlying sexism and misogyny. They usually belong to the same class of people that also think that because they dont mind having a male person doing a cervical smear, neither should anyone else. What is that ? Lack of empathy , a type of sociopathy?

I know this might come as a strange thing but it's not either of those things...

It's just a different opinion, and an unwillingness to be shoehorned into one by other women telling us how awful we are.

In terms of the male person doing a cervical smear thing, you're effectively implying that someone who isn't horrifyingly offended by drag queens doesn't care for the feelings of people who may well have been rape or sexual abuse victims which you have absolutely no basis for other than trying to make us look bad and be emotive. Now that is clueless.

Agree

OMG - I thought it was just me who didn't like drag!

Third time asking: Why are there few (if any!) bio kings, that is men dressing up as men to mock men. I don’t mean drag queens who occasionally dress as a famous man, I mean a man whose whole act is mocking male culture, especially straight male culture

Well technically Al Murray's Pub Landlord character is exactly this, but I've never heard that act referred to as a 'drag king'.

I would never ask drag queens, or anyone, to agree with me its offensive.

All Id ask then to do is respect that it is offensive to many women when they emulate women, and stop.

Ignorance or lack of understanding isnt a defence to be offensive.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Drag was born out of the (often violent and legally enforced) oppression of gay and effeminate men.A middle fingerfromthe oppressed classtosociety.

Firstly, what the hell is an 'effeminate man'? Because whatever the answer, they're not women. All the fighting that gay men have done against being seen as 'women', grouped in with the women, that being gay equals being 'effeminate' - the drag culture is as harmful to the average gay man as it is to women for the harmful stereotypes it brings as the attitudes as above still exist.

Again, why do drags have to appropriate being female to stick up a finger to society? How is it always so brave to be a woman under every guise, and have a voice under that guise, unless you're an actual woman at which point having a voice automatically makes you a nuisance? Why can't they be men who like makeup and silly costumes, performing their talent whilst being the men they are? More pretending it's just men having a bit of fun than accepting they are just taking the piss and getting away with it.

I'm not bothered either way by drag but Brumboo makes an excellent point.

'but this is how effeminate men expressed themselves' isn't doing homophobia a great deal of good.

Third time asking: Why are there few (if any!) bio kings, that is men dressing up as men to mock men. I don’t mean drag queens who occasionally dress as a famous man, I mean a man whose whole act is mocking male culture, especially straight male culture

I think Harry Enfield's Frank Doberman would also qualify. Probably countless others I can't recall immediately

Al Murray is interesting but Id say the difference is hes playing a character (stereotypical landlord) which hasnt been opressed, so no reason to take offense.

Also, I recognise Al Murrays character. I do not recognise drag queens characters. Its offensive because the characters they portray arent real, just derogatory.

Also, I recognise Al Murrays character. I do not recognise drag queens characters. Its offensive because the characters they portray arent real, just derogatory

This is another massive generalisation as if all drag queen acts are exactly the same. They're not.

Well, yes, but then in topics like these, white straight men are the only group in the whole of society who haven't been oppressed, so that pretty much only leaves them.

Not sure a man pretending to be themselves would be entertaining.

I see the argument you're making OP but I am of the opinion that racism and sexism are different. They have different histories, different sensitivities and both are hugely complex.

I have no way to know on this forum, but I would bet that most people arguing equivalency are white women. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

@Notimeforaname you are the only person I have seen on this forum who has explicitly stated your experience of both racism and sexism and you find the comparison offensive.

To me this argument that racism and sexism are exactly the same in all circumstances and can be used interchangeably is lazy, and maybe the result of lots of white feminists primarily speaking into an echo chamber of other white feminists.

It's just a theory, and of course - maybe the original poster is a black woman, but I somehow doubt that.

Can you name any drag queens who choose to emulate a successful women with a professional career?

Sharon the astrophysicist isnt a drag name, yet Sharon Neddles is.

@JuneauBound I am also a black woman who has commented and explained why I find blackface more offensive than drag and don’t believe they should be compared at all. Unsurprisingly nobody has replied to somebody who is actually affected by both these issues.

Can you explain to me which woman/women my friend is offending and mocking when he drags as an androgynous robot? How about an alien? or a cyborg?