Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

Jurneo what do you mean by black? Some call themselves that, some dont.

@PheasantPlucker1

GummyGator complaining other men call themselves "she" isnt a defense or excuse.

Its still appropriation, no matter how many times they do it.

Im not trying to twist your words, simply pointing out the contradiction in the argument that you and others have made.

I also didnt assume you would converse about drag with strangers in real life, which is why I mentioned friends, however I am happy to stand corrected if you do have those type of conversations with strangers as well as friends.

Its not a defense or an excuse, the majority of the contestants on drag race are gay men. They call each other girl in and out of drag.

Would you still be offended if drag queens decided they no longer wanted to use the phrase she or girl and wanted there own pronouns? would that correct the issues you have?
I'm pretty sure that even if drag queens went that way the larger gay community would still affectionately use them as they have been doing for years.

I will talk drag with anyone, whether it be work colleagues, school mums or strangers in the playgym, I enjoy drag so if it comes up I will join in.

@Ijustreallywantacat

But the qualities they embrace are ones that have been very harmful to women, I really dont like the perpetuation of the idea "this is what a woman is".

They're not saying 'this is what a woman is. They're saying
"This I who I am"
"This is what I enjoy"
"This is my body"

Because if you can't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love somebody else?

Exactly And to the last bit, can I get an Amen?!

AMEN

GummyGator yes, using their own pronouns would solve the issue for me!

No matter how many excuses are given for the appropriation its still appropriation.

@Ijustreallywantacat

AMEN

AMEN!!!

Level32 I think you may have the wrong poster, or even wrong thread?

I havent seen anyone make the "I have a black friend" argument.

My only comment was I wouldnt correct the black women I know who say it, as thats not my place.

Jurneo has asked several times that this line of topic be shut down, out of respect I think it would be helpful if we could all agree with her and move on.

@PheasantPlucker1 the question is do they consider themselves black and subject to the history of oppression related to minstrel shows. My presumption is that whoever in your family has said minstrel shows and drag are the same was not black. It seems easy to say "I won't fight an offensive trope because someone black I know made the same joke/comment/statement, so it's okay"

Your argument requires that people fight against offence even if it's a minority who are offended. You rightly point out that the offence is based on a presumed equivalency of racism and sexism, almost exclusively employed by people who have only experienced one of them.

If your black family members want to make that argument, great - don't shut it down. But if you don't push to shut it down in other instances, even just by asking "do you have experience of both" to people who do that, your entire argument here is invalid.

@PheasantPlucker1

Level32 I think you may have the wrong poster, or even wrong thread?

I havent seen anyone make the "I have a black friend" argument.

My only comment was I wouldnt correct the black women I know who say it, as thats not my place.

Jurneo has asked several times that this line of topic be shut down, out of respect I think it would be helpful if we could all agree with her and move on.

To be extra clear, the line of argument I want to shut down is that minstrel shows are equivalent to drag.

I categorically do not want to be used as an excuse to help people avoid facing the racism of the original comparison!

Jurneo I have agreed with you on that point several times!

@PheasantPlucker1

GummyGator yes, using their own pronouns would solve the issue for me!

No matter how many excuses are given for the appropriation its still appropriation.

I had hoped when I asked you this, you would say no. You have a massive issue with terms that are used express with the femininity that they feel.

That's great. But I didn't see you question it when other posters made the comparison again. You also said that you wouldn't question if black people said it, but you did not agree to question it if white people did. Do you agree to stop people (even people who agree with you) from equating racism and sexism if they only have experience of one?

I know you think I'm labouring a point here, but this is very very important. These two should not be compared. If you think the argument is valid, push people to think harder and make it another way.

Femininity has no relation to being female, as these drag queens prove.

Femininity, the gendered stereotypes, have been used to opress women for millenia.

Its both appropriation and a completely innacurate portrayal of women.

They both have men dressing as women, yet from all I’ve seen, the pantomimes are usually frumpy middle-age, elderly women while drag is usually more glam.

They're usually middle-aged because the character is (generally) supposed to be a generation above the principals. Similar reason to why Alistair Sim wasn't young in St Trinian's.

If you wanted a younger, more glam part in drag you'd probably have to be the Genie of the Ring in Aladdin, or Fairy of the Bells in Dick Whittington or something.

Level32 of course I didnt ask that. Very unnatural conversation!

Its a very common comparison, its been made on here many times so it has come up in conversation.

@PheasantPlucker1

Level32 of course I didnt ask that. Very unnatural conversation!

Its a very common comparison, its been made on here many times so it has come up in conversation.

Wait, then what did you mean when you said this:

"Jurneo I have non-white family who have made that argument, and no, I would not shut them down. "

Jurneo I, obviously, didnt ask the question with the exact wording suggested.

We have had conversations about it however, and I am aware of the differing opinions.

*They're usually middle-aged because the character is (generally) supposed to be a generation above the principals. Similar reason to why Alistair Sim wasn't young in St Trinian's.

If you wanted a younger, more glam part in drag you'd probably have to be the Genie of the Ring in Aladdin, or Fairy of the Bells in Dick Whittington or something.*

So drags and pantomimes are quite similar then? So why is drag bad and pantomimes not?

I saw a pantomime of Aladdin and Dick Whittington and both had older female characters played by straight men and dressed frumpy, at least the ones I’ve seen in the Northeast of England. Do most middle-age women think this is a correct way to show age gaps? Why is it seemingly ok when men are playing dowdy older female characters yet when it is men playing as glamorous women, it’s seemingly more mocking and wrong.

@Ijustreallywantacat

For example

I find Rupaul's "ideal" of beauty extremely damaging to women. Beautiful is blonde, curvy, hourglass, manicured and painted to hide facial imperfections, is it? (I was going to use maquillaged, but is that ok in English?)

That narrow ideal of beauty excludes probably 90-95% of women. I don't need a man telling me I can make myself beautiful by emulating his caricature of women. I certainly don't want him in MSM where he is propagating that warped ideal of beauty.

Pantomime is pretty awful actually- look at the portrayal of Chinese and middle Eastern characters.

I find Rupaul's "ideal" of beauty extremely damaging to women. Beautiful is blonde, curvy, hourglass, manicured and painted to hide facial imperfections, is it?

Do you know what you're so right Ru Paul only celebrates blonde people who all look the same...

Oh wait...