Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

They’re the Modern equivalent of clowns and court jesters.

However comedy/satire is better when it’s punching up, sometimes it’s hard to see how drag is punching up when women lack a lot of power and hate to be reduced to our sex characteristics.

Also there are a lot of narcissists who are in it for the exhibitionism and over sexualisation.

I enjoy drag, I enjoy criticising it too. Not all drag is well done and not all drag entertainers are clever or issue free. But a lot are and should be able to take criticism and adapt.

There may some drag acts that are performed by misogynists. But let's be clear is really not the oppression we need to be worrying about, drag is an art form which has been domnated by cis-male bodies. This just isn't the case now and it's being throughouly explored by all streams of people. Explore your performative side and realise it has nothing to do with your general identity as a woman. It's a creative endeavour.

GummyGator it isnt a question of me disagreeing with you, its that you disagree with yourself.

Drag is either men emulating a charicatire of women.

Or its male art, self expression and nothing to do with women. In which case theres no need for any to call themselves she.

But it cant be both at the same time, as people keep argueing.

I have different experiences of opinions to drag in public, but it makes sense we both gravitate towards friends who share our own morals.

It's a shame that this thread opened with the argument being the comparison to blackface. Drag being derogatory to women is a discussion in its own right, adding race into it has put people's backs up, people who might (or might not!) have been more open to thinking about how women might be offended by drag acts.
I can see why the op thought there was a comparison, men painting on and mocking a more oppressed identity in a theatrical setting, but it's 2 different arguments and the comparison is offensive to some.

@Ijustreallywantacat of course it’s your place to criticise. That’s a triggering phrase for a lot of women who have been told their place is in the kitchen or second place to a man. I was with you until you said that.

It’s a classic tension between women wanting to author and own femininity and men thinking they can do it better.

Let’s not lump the pro female performers in with the anti female performers. You and know know there are plenty of both, and being upset by the latter doesn’t invalidate the former.

IJustreallywantacat obviously I havent formed an opinion without watching drag.

Eons ago I worked with many queens, and the disdain I have came from hours of suffering through the performances.

Replacing them with other acts was a suprisingly popular move.

Femininity and being female are two different things. Gay men were mocked and called she due to toxic masculinity and females being seen as lesser than men.

For those men to embrace that and join in with the mocking women is purely a form of punching down.

There may some drag acts that are performed by misogynists. But let's be clear is really not the oppression we need to be worrying about, drag is an art form which has been domnated by cis-male bodies. This just isn't the case now and it's being throughouly explored by all streams of people.

YES. THANK YOU.

That’s a triggering phrase for a lot of women who have been told their place is in the kitchen or second place to a man. I was with you until you said that.

What phrase?
That it's not my place? All I'm saying is that the use of 'she' and feminine language by gay men is something that has happened for a really long time.
It's not my world. Its not my culture. Its much deeper than I know. So no, it's not. Apologies if its the wrong phrase but i don't know how else to put it.

For those men to embrace that and join in with the mocking women is purely a form of punching down.

I think I'm going to stop talking to you now because you keep talking about mocking and can't back it up. I think we just disagree.

Totally agree femininity and womanhood is seperate. That's why it's easy for me to see drag as a seperare thing to woman hood and instead a celebration of their own femininity and personality.

Im very happy to agree to disagree.

For me the main point will always be the use of the word "she" amd the implication sex is a costune that can be removed.

These men are not women. That isnt their word, history, reality, biology or lived experience. It isnt their culture.

Embracing feminity as themselves, as men, great.

Implying womenhood (calling themsleves she) is just a costume, an act, not great.

I don't.

The term anything privilege as a rule angers me.

The group in society with the worst outcomes in most areas are looked after youths.

I find the idea that anyone assumes privelege based on skin colour abhorrent.

That aside, you can't criticise males from benefitting from something they didn't create.

That's fair enough if you don't believe in any of it, as I said you appear to have this massive blindspot around class analysis and I imagine that's why you're so blasé about other feminist issues. But you don't agree with privilege as a concept of being treated lesser because of your skin colour or sex, so I can see why it doesn't make sense to you. Some of your arguments are really quite men's rights activism ones.

As a concept of not being treated as lesser because of your skin colour or your sex

@PheasantPlucker1

GummyGator it isnt a question of me disagreeing with you, its that you disagree with yourself.

Drag is either men emulating a charicatire of women.

Or its male art, self expression and nothing to do with women. In which case theres no need for any to call themselves she.

But it cant be both at the same time, as people keep argueing.

I have different experiences of opinions to drag in public, but it makes sense we both gravitate towards friends who share our own morals.

Where do you believe I've disagreed with myself? I don't have an issue with how they choose to label themselves when in full drag but as a previous poster pointed out the use of she/girl isnt exclusively used in drag but is used in the gay community as an expression of femininity.

And just to point out my post said when I've heard drag been spoken about its in a positive way, no mention of my friends or morals.
What makes you twist my words this way?

Just popping back into this thread and was a little disappointed that black women are still not being listened to when they say they have personal experience of both, and it's gross and insensitive that drag and minstrel shows are being compared. Black people's experiences are not yours to employ for an argument that ignores black women's perspectives.

@PheasantPlucker1
But what I find really interesting is how many people are offended by drag being compared to minstrels (white men being black men)

Now that you know how many people on this thread feel, how offensive it is and doesn't serve a feminist cause, you should also be offended that drag is being compared to minstrel shows. Please join in stopping this harmful comparison.

Many here seem to want women to join together and recognise the plight of "our" class of people as one (and anyone who disagrees is a "cool" girl seeking acceptance).

If you only care about the perspectives of white women, you will never find women working together to fight for women's rights. Efforts pushing for just white women's rights are no better than human rights fights that exclude the perspectives of women.

GummyGator complaining other men call themselves "she" isnt a defense or excuse.

Its still appropriation, no matter how many times they do it.

Im not trying to twist your words, simply pointing out the contradiction in the argument that you and others have made.

I also didnt assume you would converse about drag with strangers in real life, which is why I mentioned friends, however I am happy to stand corrected if you do have those type of conversations with strangers as well as friends.

Juneau you have taken that comment out of context.

I was comparing the offense at comapring drag to blackface, to the lack of offense at drag also being blackface.

Your second point is very interesting.
You say that as some find it offensive, it should be stopped. I actually agree with you.

This thread is literally a discussion about if that should happen.

If many people find something that appropriates their reality offensive, should it be stopped?

You've said its not about the costumes and the dresses and the make up, because I think we agree that doesn't make a woman? Right? At the end of the day, they know they are men wearing dresses. Maybe I'm just not that possessive of the pronoun. Probably one of the horrible handmaiden in that way.

But I know the use of the term 'she' and the feminisation of gay men's language has links to Polari, and the need to secret themselves away for fear of violence or arrest. So I let it go. Someone else calling someone else she doesn't make me any less of a woman!

And DRAG is particular version of feminity IS and act and a costume that they can take off. Have you seen any of the pictures I posted? How does that represent a typical woman?

Embracing femininity as themselves and as men is exactly what they are doing.

For example

I don't think it is the same at all. However, there may come a time where drag acts are largely ignored.

@PheasantPlucker1

Juneau you have taken that comment out of context.

I was comparing the offense at comapring drag to blackface, to the lack of offense at drag also being blackface.

Your second point is very interesting.
You say that as some find it offensive, it should be stopped. I actually agree with you.

This thread is literally a discussion about if that should happen.

If many people find something that appropriates their reality offensive, should it be stopped?

Hi @PheasantPlucker1 yes that's exactly my point - you're saying if something offends some people, stop it. You are not (yet), however, arguing the same thing about the comparison of minstrels and drag.

If you think drag should be stopped because it offends some, do you agree that any comparison between minstrel shows and drag should be stopped? Will you join in speaking out to shut down this harmful, lazy line of argument whenever you see it?

Ijustreallywantacat I cant qoute your last sentence, but thats what stood out to me.

Id love if these acts could embrace their femininity as men, without feeling the need to call themsleves she.

These men perform "femininity" far better than I, or most of us, ever could. As you say its not a typical woman.

But the qualities they embrace are ones that have been very harmful to women, I really dont like the perpetuation of the idea "this is what a woman is".

Id rather it be complete self expression of their own culture, without falling back on the gendered stereotypes of what men and women should be.

Jurneo I have non-white family who have made that argument, and no, I would not shut them down. Just as I wouldnt shut you down. Im never going to contradict someone who isnt white on what racism is!

I do agree with you however that comparing the two is not helpful, and its a shame the thread hasnt moved on from that point and people keep dragging it back up.

I think probably it’s a little more about the specific act and content of their show rather than drag in general then.

I think this is true.

Dames or principal boys in pantomime, or 'breeches roles' in opera and ballet don't bother me at all. It's actually quite interesting which ones you're supposed to buy into and which are done tongue in cheek.

Sometimes it's played completely straight — you're supposed to believe Prince Charming and Dandini, or Octavian in Der Rosenkavalier, are men.

I've seen ballets of Cinderella where men play the stepsisters that fall in the middle, where the extra height and strength is used to be 'scary', but there's no acknowledgement that they're men. Similar with La Fille Mal Gardée, although it's used for comic effect there. Pantomime dames on the other hand — both the Dame and the audience know it's a man in the role.

With others (still drag in the sense of dressing up), there's a man who's playing a character who just happens to be a woman. Like this from The Two Ronnies. The joke is on the characters (both male and female), not "women" in general.

What I'm not very keen on is the new 'high fashion' drag. I don't know enough about the history of American drag to say much about it, but it seems quite different. There doesn't seem to be any of the 'affection' for the character that, say, Paul O'Grady had as Lily Savage. Instead it's about the clothes (no problem there) and then a generic 'bitchy' persona, almost as an afterthought.

@PheasantPlucker1 are your non-white family Black?

Totally agree femininity and womanhood is seperate. That's why it's easy for me to see drag as a seperare thing to woman hood and instead a celebration of their own femininity and personality.

This!!!!

Not sure if this has been asked, but if drag is wrong, does that mean pantomimes are as well?

They both have men dressing as women, yet from all I’ve seen, the pantomimes are usually frumpy middle-age, elderly women while drag is usually more glam.

But the qualities they embrace are ones that have been very harmful to women, I really dont like the perpetuation of the idea "this is what a woman is".

They're not saying 'this is what a woman is. They're saying
"This I who I am"
"This is what I enjoy"
"This is my body"

Because if you can't love yourself, how the hell you gonna love somebody else?