Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

Have you?
First time I've seen that question if so.
Yes, I could happily watch as a Drag King

So the aspects which are offensive, the sexist aspects, could be removed very easily.

They have been asked, begged petitioned, told countless times why its sexist, why its offensive.

If it makes no difference to the viewers, such as yourself, why do you think they refuse and fight so hard to be allowed to continue calling themselves women?

If it makes no difference to the viewers, such as yourself, why do you think they refuse and fight so hard to be allowed to continue calling themselves women?

They don't have to fight so hard to call them selves women (when they are on stage and presenting as a character) because most people do not have a problem with it and they have a very large fan base. They do not believe they are really women. It is a character, and you'll hear just as many jokes about men in dresses and penises etc as you will anything else.

You've explained why you're not a fan and I've tried to listen, as I hope some of what I've said sunk in. But surely you must see that asking to change the entire premise of the show, and for camp gay men to change their entire culture (again, long called each other she and her) is nonsensical. Its not going to happen and you know it.

I really wish you'd delve in to drag a bit more and see what it's about nowadays. More inclusive, and much less to do with 'dressing up as a woman' thab ever.

They've even stopped saying 'May the best woman win' on RP. its 'May the best drag queen win'.
I'd suggest the show 'Dragula'. There's Drag kings there.

Do you think drag queens are talented enough to performwithoutimpersonating women?

AND ALSO

you'll find that lots and lots of drag queens do not want to impersonate women. That's not the goal. As we have said countless times to you.

Why do people do drag?

Selection of quotes from queens.
(Sorry about the caps, just how it was on the website)

"FIRST AND FOREMOST, DRAG IS A CREATIVE OUTLET. I ENJOY CREATING A PERSONA OR CHARACTER THAT CAN CHANGE EVERY TIME I PUT ON A FACE. IT’S ALSO A GREAT CHALLENGE TO KEEP DOING NEW THINGS AND TO CONTINUE TO PUSH MYSELF CREATIVELY. CREATIVE AESTHETIC ASIDE, I FEEL THAT DRAG NOT ONLY ALLOWS ME A PLATFORM TO RAISE AWARENESS ABOUT DIFFERENT LGBTQ ISSUES, BUT ALSO MANDATES THAT I USE IT. I LOVE DRAG. IT’S HARD TO IMAGINE MY LIFE WITHOUT IT."

"FOR ME, DRAG HAS BEEN AN UNBELIEVABLY SATISFYING ARTISTIC EXPRESSION. I MOVED TO NYC TO PERFORM AND WRITE MUSIC, AND DRAG ENDED UP PRESENTING ITSELF AS THE VEHICLE TO DO SO WITHOUT HAVING TO CHANGE MY APPEARANCE OR PERFORMANCE STYLE TO FIT SOMEONE ELSE’S NARROW VISION. I HAVE THE CHANCE TO SHOW THE WORLD WHAT I DO BEST (AT LEAST ONCE THE REST OF NYC CATCHES ON! BUT WHAT IT REALLY COMES DOWN TO IS SUPPORT. MUCH OF THE GAY NIGHTLIFE COMMUNITY IS HUGELY SUPPORTIVE OF MY PARODIES AND MY NON-TRADITIONAL PRESENTATION, AND THAT’S WHAT’S KEPT ME IN THE WIG AND THE HEELS AND THE LASHES, TAKING THE TRAIN TO THE CLUB."

"WHEN I EXPLAIN WHY I DO DRAG TO SOMEBODY IN MY FAMILY, LIKE MY GRANDMA, I SAY IT’S A FORM OF ART. IT’S A GREAT WAY FOR ME TO PULL ALL OF MY EXPERIENCES TOGETHER WITHIN MYSELF. AS A CHILD GROWING UP ON A FARM, I REMEMBER WATCHING TELEVISION AND SEEING GLAMOROUS PEOPLE ON THE SCREEN AND IN THE PAGES OF MAGAZINES. I FELT THAT I WAS MEANT FOR SOMETHING GREAT AND WANTED TO SHINE AS BRIGHT AS THOSE REPRESENTATIONS OF GLAMOUR. DRAG HAS BEEN A GREAT WAY TO CAPTIVATE MANY EYES ALL AROUND THE WORLD, AND NOW THAT I HAVE THE AUDIENCE’S ATTENTION, I WANT TO BE INSPIRING TO ANYONE WHO’S EVER FELT INVISIBLE OR DISREGARDED OR ABUSED. BEING IN DRAG GIVES ME THE CHANCE TO SPREAD LOVE AND CREATIVITY AND BRAVERY TO ANYONE WILLING TO LISTEN AND ESPECIALLY TO LGBT YOUTH. YES, I ENJOY BEING GLAMOROUS AND SHINING BRIGHT IN A ROOM FULL OF PEOPLE, BUT WHAT MAKES IT WORTH IT IS HAVING AN IMPACT ON THE PLANET."

It's about art, glamour, dressing up and feeling good.

Men haven't oppressed woman.

A man, a man, a man has.

My dad didn't make the rules on marital rape. My brother doesn't beat up his girlfriend or call her a slut. My friend doesn't make the laws.

But men rarely call other men out on their mysogyny.They are happy to accept that status quo.
I've worked in a male dominated profession, been the only woman on the shop floor etc. It wasn't all the men who felt I shouldn't be there, it wasn't all the men who displayed porn in their workspaces. But they didn't call the men out who did. It was only when women started to move into these professions that they (the women) tried to stop those practices.
When a car full of lads rolls down the window and shouts insults at a lone female runner. Do any of those men call their mates out on it?
My daughter has to cope with lads on the bus to school looking at porn and commenting in graphic detail about what they'd like to do to those girls. There are men on that bus too, why do they never call out that behaviour, set a good example?
If most men aren't like that, why does mysogyny persist?

The thing I can't stand about drag is the sexualisation - it's like I am being forced into being the spectator for someone's sexual fetish, simultaneously validating their view of themselves and helping them to get off, and I hate that, it is extremely distasteful. I don't want to be the audience for someone's sexual kinks, it does nothing for me.

@SusannaMorvern

Men haven't oppressed woman.

A man, a man, a man has.

My dad didn't make the rules on marital rape. My brother doesn't beat up his girlfriend or call her a slut. My friend doesn't make the laws.

But men rarely call other men out on their mysogyny.They are happy to accept that status quo.
I've worked in a male dominated profession, been the only woman on the shop floor etc. It wasn't all the men who felt I shouldn't be there, it wasn't all the men who displayed porn in their workspaces. But they didn't call the men out who did. It was only when women started to move into these professions that they (the women) tried to stop those practices.
When a car full of lads rolls down the window and shouts insults at a lone female runner. Do any of those men call their mates out on it?
My daughter has to cope with lads on the bus to school looking at porn and commenting in graphic detail about what they'd like to do to those girls. There are men on that bus too, why do they never call out that behaviour, set a good example?
If most men aren't like that, why does mysogyny persist?

I can't answer your question about lad culture but you are absolutely right in that regard. I don't have the answers to that. As Brumboo pointed out well, these men and their toxic culture probably means that other men don't feel able to due to fear of being branded themselves (ie when I was at school that people encouraged homophobia because they were scared of being called gay themselves).

As per your bottom point though , the same reason that racism and homophobia and disablism exist even though most people don't like that.

@Jarnsaxa

Of course you are being unreasonable. The black and white minstrels were offensive to black MEN

Little Britain had Bubbles Devere and come fly with me had Precious well into the 2000's
Its only wrong if its men who are targeted.
Men are the actual humans.
Women are their support workers and cheerleaders. Obviously.
Sillly girlie's!

But that's just not true , is it.

@PheasantPlucker1

Mockolate so why cant these men do drag without dragging women into it?

Why is the "she" bit both so irrelevant it barely counts, but also so integeral to the act its impossible to remove, despite so many finding it offensive?

As for gummygator, you just replied to a post about Matt Lucas blacking up as not racist and an art form. You may want that to read that again in the context of the thread.

Gummy didn't say that. Also , Bubbles De Vere wasn't black.

I’ve been reading with interest and am a little on the fence myself at the moment. I used to attend drag clubs a fair amount when I was younger so my views might be based on an outdated understanding of drag.

The thing my brain keeps coming back to is.....If drag is just about Art, creating an exciting persona etc abs not about women, why are the personas always the persona of a woman. I know someone earlier up thread said there are dragkings, but is it that really that common to have a drag king?, I’ve only ever seen drag queens. Why not just dress up as over the top characters of either sex for art.

I still don't think Gummy said that but i stand corrected on the blacking up - I was thinking of the computer woman!

Wow. I can't quite believe that was allowed for so lon or any of Little Britain

What annoys me about these things, take for example Little Britain and Jeremy Kyle, even aspects of Ant and Dec in the early years, is they do these things and people love it. Maybe people complain but the show's usually respond with some nonsense about it not breaking broadcast regulations. I can't think of one single programme that was fully taken off air due to offense, not one. Jeremy Kyle is the only one I can think of and that's only because a man died (and they made JK the scapegoat to try and cover up the fact the psychologist was a fraud and the producers manipulated mentally ill contestants). I know thwr was a different premise but it went on for years and everyone knew about it. Same with little Britain. Rachel Adedeji from Hollyoaks has also now alleged that producers and make up girls were horrifyingly racist to her for years yet worked there for years and only said this off the back of BLM.

Why, years and years on, do these people issue formal apologies for things that went on for a long time that squiff all was done about?

I'm derailing slightly here, but my point is this.

No amount of complaining or being offended will take these shows off the air. The only time things like this are cancelled is when politically they have to. And given that drag originates from gay men, I'm not sure I ever see a time when it will be cancelled.

I don't have a massive problem with drag myself. Perhaps because I don't live in a massively populated area but where I'm from no one gives two shits what sex or sexuality or skin colour you are. Maybe I'm lucky in that regard. I have more of a problem in the theme of misogny with women making money out of acting thick or aggressive to make money on TV. They are exploiting women to make a living and I think people should be far more concerned with what other women are doing rather than what some fellas in dresses are doing dancing to a track.

@PheasantPlucker1

Being asked the same question repeatedly will tend to elict patronising responses, yes. Although I only used the phrase "sashay" to refer to the poster who described themselves that way.

Its strange you think such a common drag phrase is patronsing though

So did you ever manage to work out why these amazing talented men are so utterly incapable of performing without referring to themselves as women mockolate?

I don't know why you keep implying we ignore your questions and then ignore the ones we ask.

women are murdered by men who think they are something lesser. Drag encourages the idea that women are something lesser to be mocked and appropriated.

This.

Why not just dress up as over the top characters of either sex for art.

They do. Drag does. See images.
We can't escape the fact that drag is usually about the feminine form, but if they tried to dress up as your average woman, there'd be nil points!

women are murdered by men who think they are something lesser. Drag encourages the idea that women are something lesser to be mocked and appropriated.

We keep repeating this word 'mocked without backing it up. What about it is mocking? I really don't understand your point. It's dressing up.

@Ijustreallywantacat

Why not just dress up as over the top characters of either sex for art.

They do. Drag does. See images.
We can't escape the fact that drag is usually about the feminine form, but if they tried to dress up as your average woman, there'd be nil points!

women are murdered by men who think they are something lesser. Drag encourages the idea that women are something lesser to be mocked and appropriated.

We keep repeating this word 'mocked without backing it up. What about it is mocking? I really don't understand your point. It's dressing up.

Thanks I didn’t realise that drag of men was a thing. I’d only seen drag queens.

I think probably it’s a little more about the specific act and content of their show rather than drag in general then.

RootyToot I have read through your posts twice and cant find any questions of your I have ignored, if you let me know the time of the posts Id be happy to answer them.

This thread seems to be stuck in a circular argument now. Posters are argueing drag has nothing to do with women its about the art and male self expression, but at the same time they can not stop impersonating woman as thats the entire premise of the show.

I have tried to take on board other peoples opinions but to me any form of "show" which is based on pretending to be someone lesser than yourself for laughs is not art or self expression, just cruel mockery.

cruel mockery.

DRAG. IS. NOT. MOCKING. WOMEN.

@PheasantPlucker1

RootyToot I have read through your posts twice and cant find any questions of your I have ignored, if you let me know the time of the posts Id be happy to answer them.

This thread seems to be stuck in a circular argument now. Posters are argueing drag has nothing to do with women its about the art and male self expression, but at the same time they can not stop impersonating woman as thats the entire premise of the show.

I have tried to take on board other peoples opinions but to me any form of "show" which is based on pretending to be someone lesser than yourself for laughs is not art or self expression, just cruel mockery.

What makes you think that the men doing drag, are doing so to impersonate someone lesser? That's your interpretation of what they are doing, not the reality.

Is calling women 'fishy' a compliment in your book?

Of course its mockery. Its based on a charicature, a stereotype of a woman that doesnt exist.

They arent portraying women with careers are they

But then we will be back to the circular argument of how these men arent pretending to be women, while at the same time also having to pretend to be women as its an integral part of their culture.

GummyGator they impersonate women, as evidenced by the fact they call themselves she during the acts.

Female terms.

DRAG. IS. NOT. MOCKING. WOMEN

EXCEPT. WHEN.IT. IS.

@PheasantPlucker1

Is calling women 'fishy' a compliment in your book?

Of course its mockery. Its based on a charicature, a stereotype of a woman that doesnt exist.

They arent portraying women with careers are they

But then we will be back to the circular argument of how these men arent pretending to be women, while at the same time also having to pretend to be women as its an integral part of their culture.

Actually they portray a range of characters and 1 style of drag doesn't fit all. Club, goth, pageant to name a few.

I think it's just a teeny bit obvious that we can throw the same points back at each other with different wording all day long and still the conclusion will remain the same, we disagree.
Unfortunately I do think that mumsnet gives people the forum to either say what they actually feel (where they wouldn't admit it in real life) or they play a character (how fitting). Not once have I heard this argument in the real world. If I ever hear drag or drag race mentioned it has only ever been in a positive light and this coming from women too, they don't feel mocked.

@gummygator

This post is the equivalent of a facebook post saying 'at the hospital '.

Posting for a reaction.

While I'm here though, I bloody love drag, I love Ru Paul!

Can I just point out how true this is?

The original poster hasn't been back to offer up any more thought into this post. Effectively dropped the mumsnet version of a bomb and sat back and watched.

The shade!!

Calling themselves she during the act and after the act, and dressing up, has nothing to do with mocking women. Its campness. It's about embracing their feminine selves. They are exaggerating their own feminine selves. They want to emphasise their own bodies, nobody else's.
PLEASE. PLEASE.
Watch some drag. Listen to the artists. Read up on why they do it. 'To get at women' does not feature.

I know i sound contradictory. But the history of feminine gay men has very little to do with women. Femininity? Yes. The female form? Sure. But not womanhood.

But I see that as seperate to womanhood. Aint nobody up on that stage trying to imitate me. Maybe that's where we're differing. I don't know. I don't see it as boys dressing up 'as women'. I see it as them dressing up in their own interpretation of exaggerated femininity. Even the pronoun thing has a long history. Gay men have used female pronouns for a long time. I cant see it as my place to criticise.

As for fishy...not great but its fairly old school, and it is a compliment, at least to a drag queen.