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Original poster

Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

651 replies

Taoneusa · 25/02/2021 15:28

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

OP posts:
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15
AIMD · 26/02/2021 00:23

I’m so glad someone started this thread.

A while ago someone I know said they don’t like drag because they feel it takes the Piss out of women. They didn’t have any deep thought about it beyond that and wouldn’t consider themselves feminists or read/talk about most feminist issues. So it was just a off the cuff comment.

Recently I thought about it more and I suppose drag is like a carature of women. Men dressing up and exgerating some of the more negative stereo types about women.

PheasantPlucker1 · 26/02/2021 00:25

I think the fact that some find drag offensive is enough to ban aspects of it, yes.

Banning the performers referring to themselves as women would not stop the acts, just the offense at womens expense.

RuPaul could still be on a tv, just as a fabulous man in a dress. A he. Not a she. Which could also do a hell of a lot of good for young lads feeling under pressure to conform to masculine stereotypes, which can be overwhelmingly toxic.

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 00:26

and exgerating some of the more negative stereo types about women

Genuinely interested, such as?

AIMD · 26/02/2021 00:30

@Mockolate

and exgerating some of the more negative stereo types about women

Genuinely interested, such as?

I mainly thinking about the ‘bitchy’ type persona of some drag acts.

That might be a clumsy word to sue but was the closest thing word to what I meant.

AIMD · 26/02/2021 00:30

Use not sue

PheasantPlucker1 · 26/02/2021 00:34

Is calling women "fishy" negative enough for you mockolate?

Jarnsaxa · 26/02/2021 00:35

Of course you are being unreasonable.
The black and white minstrels were offensive to black MEN

Little Britain had Bubbles Devere and come fly with me had Precious well into the 2000's
Its only wrong if its men who are targeted.
Men are the actual humans.
Women are their support workers and cheerleaders. Obviously.
Sillly girlie's!

gummygator · 26/02/2021 00:50

I'm not offended by a man wanting to dress up in a dress, put on make up way better than I can and put on a performance.
Dresses and make up aren't exclusive to women.
If it offends you don't tune in.
Don't insult people that have had to suffer racism by making the comparison to drag.
Racism is disgusting, hateful and vile.
Drag is an art form. You may not like it or appreciate it but it is an art form, it is self expression and release.

Sapho47 · 26/02/2021 00:53

@RaidersoftheLostAardvark

Yep, it is very offensive. I'd have some sympathy if they had women dressing up a parodies of men. Mocking women, travellers and poor people are still weirdly acceptable on mainstream TV.
They do dragkings
Mockolate · 26/02/2021 00:56

I mainly thinking about the ‘bitchy’ type persona of some drag acts

Ah, OK, I see Smile
Still, must be a matter of perception as I just see it as wanting to express themselves (been watching Drag Race UK like I do every Thursday, there's a lot of work goes into making outfits from scratch from basically nothing for example)
if some get or emulate being a bit bitchy, so what? (My opinion)
People are all different.
Someone said about Ru could just be happy being a man in a dress - yes, fair point, but why can someone not want to "become" someone else for a bit?
They're not saying they're literally a woman.
Just expressing themselves.
I personally don't feel threatened or mocked by somebody just "doing them."

DarcyJack · 26/02/2021 00:59

Black and white minstrels were an art form! Good singers and dancers - but still racist crap. Drag may or may not be art but it is certainly sexist crap.

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 01:00

And we're back to comparing drag to racism again

PheasantPlucker1 · 26/02/2021 01:02

Mockolate so why cant these men do drag without dragging women into it?

Why is the "she" bit both so irrelevant it barely counts, but also so integeral to the act its impossible to remove, despite so many finding it offensive?

As for gummygator, you just replied to a post about Matt Lucas blacking up as not racist and an art form. You may want that to read that again in the context of the thread.

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 01:09

As for gummygator, you just replied to a post about Matt Lucas blacking up as not racist and an art form You may want that to read that again in the context of the thread

Gummygator said this
If it offends you don't tune in. Don't insult people that have had to suffer racism by making the comparison to drag
Racism is disgusting, hateful and vile

Which is a good point, not sure which one you're trying to make?

PheasantPlucker1 · 26/02/2021 01:17

One post discussed Matt Lucas blacking up, but it was on tv as it was seen as drag, not blackface.

The next post referred to drag as "an art form, self expression and release".

I do not agree blacking up is ok if you call it drag and an art form, but again we will have to disagree.

gummygator · 26/02/2021 01:59

@PheasantPlucker1

Mockolate so why cant these men do drag without dragging women into it?

Why is the "she" bit both so irrelevant it barely counts, but also so integeral to the act its impossible to remove, despite so many finding it offensive?

As for gummygator, you just replied to a post about Matt Lucas blacking up as not racist and an art form. You may want that to read that again in the context of the thread.

My post quite clearly mentions drag being compared to racism not a thing about black face or matt lucas, although I'm sure his name wasn't specifically mentioned in the original post. I admittedly had to Google black and white minstrel show, it ended over a decade before I was born but I can see from the photos the mockery it makes of race which I dont care for in the slightest and I don't see the comparison to drag. As I said I see drag as art, have you ever watched drag race? Have you seen these men design and make clothing? Heard them sing? Perform stand up? Is it because they choose to do it in a dress and make up that you can't see there talents? Courtney act for example is beautiful in and out of drag, sings, acts etc. And the make up is amazing. Maybe you should enlighten yourself and go tune into Ru Paul, I suggest starting at series 6 US version, better quality filming. You might find yourself understanding why these men do it and the hate they've faced in the past for who they are and why they use drag as a release and to feel empowered. You never know you might actually like it Grin It's quite clear you want your views to override everyone else's so shantay you stay, I'm going to sashay away.
PheasantPlucker1 · 26/02/2021 02:10

Gummygator try RTFT.

The point seems to have have sashayed its way right over your little head.

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 02:12

As I said I see drag as art, have you ever watched drag race? Have you seen these men design and make clothing? Heard them sing? Perform stand up?
Exactly, as I said, there's lots of talent there (I'm pretty new to watching drag race so not completely up on it, started watching last year)
Watched tonight's ep, that takes some talent to make those dresses, and to be able to do stand up comedy too (not in a dress, before anyone says)

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 02:15

The point seems to have have sashayed its way right over your little head

Grin

oooof
burn
WTF lol
Having to resort to patronising?
If so fair enough, shall we all?
UK hun?

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 02:21

I suggest starting at series 6 US version, better quality filming. You might find yourself understanding why these men do it and the hate they've faced in the past for who they are and why they use drag as a release and to feel empowered

Not watched any of the US ones yet, I have been watching the UK ones though.
Speaking about never fitting in, having a persona to hide behind, where they can try to be themselves just makes me think people are arseholes to want them to have to hide and "conform."

gummygator · 26/02/2021 02:22

@PheasantPlucker1

Gummygator try RTFT.

The point seems to have have sashayed its way right over your little head.

I would read the thread in full if I thought it was worth it. I came to give my opinion because mine is just as valid as yours even if it differs. From just your last few posts I can only gather that the thread reads like this 'it's offensive' 'I agree' 'I like it' 'omg how could you like it, are you just an awful human?' More drama, more drama etc Lots of back and forth One sided arguments from people that have just decided that drag and drag race are awful but never bothered to watch it. Implications of racism when disagrees that black face and drag have no comparison... Does that about sum it up?
JorjaSays · 26/02/2021 02:24

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PheasantPlucker1 · 26/02/2021 02:25

Being asked the same question repeatedly will tend to elict patronising responses, yes. Although I only used the phrase "sashay" to refer to the poster who described themselves that way.

Its strange you think such a common drag phrase is patronsing though Wink

So did you ever manage to work out why these amazing talented men are so utterly incapable of performing without referring to themselves as women mockolate?

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 02:28

Does that about sum it up?

Yup, that's about it Grin

Mockolate · 26/02/2021 02:29

Its strange you think such a common drag phrase is patronsing though

No, it wasn't the common drag phrase that was patronising, just yourself.

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