Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

[Taoneusa]

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

@Ereshkigalangcleg

They can't help being born male.

They can benefit from the male privilege they have, often without realising it, though. That people listen to them when they speak. That what they want or need is the default requirement. That their feelings matter and should be listened to, while those of women can be disregarded. I remember your complete blind spot when it comes to class analysis from another thread. You agree that white people have class privilege, yes? In the same way, so do male people.

I don't.

The term anything privilege as a rule angers me.

The group in society with the worst outcomes in most areas are looked after youths.

I find the idea that anyone assumes privelege based on skin colour abhorrent.

That aside, you can't criticise males from benefitting from something they didn't create.

@PheasantPlucker1

RootyToot what country are you in?

Im England, so women are still only 32% of MPs, despite 50.6% of the population being female.

Huge improvement from the section 28days when Thatcher had no females in her cabinet

Scotland.

I don't disagree there's an imbalance in politics. I personally would shift each and every Tory and have MPs who are working class and life experienced.

but you admit yourself we are moving forward.

How do you suggest women fight for equality if we cant name the problem?

Men dont like being stereotyped, I appreciate that. Maybe they should take it up with the men attacking women to stop the stereotype, rather than the women insulting them for it.

@tttigress

I'll agree with anything that gets Mrs Brown's boys of TV!!

Yes, it's interesting that MBB or any other comedy that takes the piss out of woman is fine but drag is not. I wonder why.

@PheasantPlucker1

How do you suggest women fight for equality if we cant name the problem?

Men dont like being stereotyped, I appreciate that. Maybe they should take it up with the men attacking women to stop the stereotype, rather than the women insulting them for it.

But men can't win.

For as long as male privilege is thrown around, men can't do anything.

They can't be feminists (seen that on many threads ) because they don't know what it's like to be a woman. They can't share their own experiences of mental health or problems because they need to get their own spaces to do that (seen that too). They can't understand what it's like to be abused because it's so rare and women are weaker (and that).

You can absolutely name the problem. The problem is society, the laws, the government, the media, stereotypes, division.

The problem is not men.

MBB is drag.

A pp asked if the ignorance was real or fake. It has to be fake as some of these questions (why can women take piss out of women but not men) have been answered so many times its tedius now.

@MammaSchwifty

I cannot agree that men as a whole think women are lesser.

There is no where in the world, no country in Earth, where you can go and find that the culture and society does not treat women and girls as lesser. In "the west", the Americas, Africa, India, Asia, even the fucking Arctic Circle, women are variously sytematically treated as property, abused, raped, controlled, trafficked, enslaved, prevented from ownership of property, left to die as newborns for being female, aborted for being female, unschooled and uneducated, relegated to huts for being "unclean", shunned for having been raped, genitally mutilated, deprived positions of power or responsibility etc etc, the sickening list goes on. Do you get that? No where on Earth are women not systemically treated as less then men, and in many cases, as less than human.

They don't make the rules.
Men haven't made the rules? Yes, yes they did. Women have been until incredibly recently in historical terms (and often still are) disenfranchised from the power structures of society. That is where the rules are made.

Does this mean women aren't strong, resilient, and resourceful? No, the opposite. When you open your eyes and see the struggle we, as a global class, face, I admire women all the more.

Perhaps the comparison of race and sex is clumsy, but if anything it tells me the cause for women's rights needs it's own much stronger voice and language, so we don't feel the need to borrow examples in a plea to get heard and to try to get people to understand. Sadly, at this time it seems that voice is getting ever more silenced as you can see in the vile attacks made on women on social media who dare to speak out against the tsunami of misogynistic sentiment

But you're playing down us borrowing examples. If anyone else did it, there'd be outcry (like men dressing up as women, for example....)

Men have their own struggles too. Women fighting this agenda just don't like to hear that.

I made the point earlier about Malala. She comes from that world. Do you think she gets by on slating all men and constantly shouting about females being less than men? The girl was shot in the head by a grown man and she still fights positively, not divisively

I hear your point about social media but when people try and attach misogyny to everything and anything, it loses its strength

I believe women are all of those things. But sadly the ones fighting for their rights repeatedly make out we are weak, powerless and victims all of the time while expecting men to treat us as the opposite.

@PheasantPlucker1

MBB is drag.

A pp asked if the ignorance was real or fake. It has to be fake as some of these questions (why can women take piss out of women but not men) have been answered so many times its tedius now.

I haven't seen anyone answer my question that I asked. Feel free to re quote me so I see it's bur I'm not saying it. Don't accuse me of fake ignorance.

@PheasantPlucker1

MBB is drag.

A pp asked if the ignorance was real or fake. It has to be fake as some of these questions (why can women take piss out of women but not men) have been answered so many times its tedius now.

yes, but it gets barely a mention in comparison to Ru Paul. Why?

Who controls society, government, media, laws? Men. Mostly rich white men.

Men can win by leaving women the fuck alone. As a class. Not individually.

Men can set up groups for men, refuges, charities, for men. As women did for women. Men can help each other, rather than pouring their energies into mocking women.

@PheasantPlucker1

Who controls society, government, media, laws? Men. Mostly rich white men.

Men can win by leaving women the fuck alone. As a class. Not individually.

Men can set up groups for men, refuges, charities, for men. As women did for women. Men can help each other, rather than pouring their energies into mocking women.

Yes. Rich white men.

So what about all the other groups of men that nobody gives a fuck about?

As a class, men do leave women alone. It's individuals who don't.

@Annasgirl @WowStarsWow what is far more offensive is anyone trying to suggest that racism is in any way equtable to drag.

Odd that people think drag should be stopped as it offends women but continue with this comparison despite the many women (white and black) who have said they find this offensive on this thread alone.

RootyToot Ill assume you are genuine.

Men are, as a class, oppressors of women. That isnt blaming, or slagging off, its historical fact. It continues to be true, as a generalisation. There are differing groups of these men. Some more extreme than others.

You mentioned Malala. Malala fought the men who refused her an education.

We are discussing men who pretend to be women to mock women.

One is far more extreme than the other. It doesnt mean any is ok.

The problem with men mocking women is because they are the oppressor class. Just as white people are to black people. Not all men are sexist, just as not all white people are racist. But as classes, we have varying degrees of priviledge.

If people choose to mock themselves, that is a personal choice. To emukate and mock those who have less than you is not acceptable, and is generally seen as offensive.

I'd never come across anyone finding drag to be offensive until MN...Personally, I dont but I respect that others have right to be offended.

I don't believe drag is comparable to B&W minstrel shows at all.

Drag might well die out as a form of expression in the future but because, I hope, society will reach a point when men & women aren't expected to meet certain social standards of image and behaviour to validate their sex and gender.

While I can see some drag reflecting some archaic and reductive attitudes towards feminine attributes, I personally don't see this as being any worse than other social expectations. Just look at celebrity and fashion pages everywhere.

As a society we're trying to work our way through what are proving to be politically complex issues with regards to sex, sexuality and gender. Our laws do not currently meet society's purposes for protecting all people regardless of these things.

I don't see drag as as assault on womens' liberty. Nor do I find the concept of being trans offensive. I also think if everyone in society (regardless of sex, security or gender) were more tolerant of each other there would be far fewer political and legal issues to iron out.

@PheasantPlucker1

Ijustreallywantacat

So when they demand to be called she in this act, what are they acting as, if not a she?

Endless gaslighting by these men. I cant believe people fall for it.

It's an act, a character. Have you been to a pantomime? If so, example Widow Twanky. It's a character. Just like all the others. It comes off after the show. They don't "demand" anything

@SunshineAvocado
Sorry I meant tomboy not tinnitus!

Was just sat there like "eh?" trying to work out what being a "bit tinnitus" meant lol

Being a woman is not an act, or character.

Unbelievable this needs spelling out.

Dressing up to pretend to be someone and mocking them, then persisting when they patiently explain why its offensive, is not funny.

I don't think drag is mockery though - unless you differentiate between those who perform in drag to mock a type of woman and those who find drag a way to express themselves.

They can't understand what it's like to be abused because it's so rare and women are weaker (and that).

No that's not quite right - yes men can be victims of domestic abuse, for example, but it's a matter of priority - men don't get killed at the same rate and resources are stretched.

That is down to violent men, it's not something that women are taking from them.

@PheasantPlucker1

RootyToot Ill assume you are genuine.

Men are, as a class, oppressors of women. That isnt blaming, or slagging off, its historical fact. It continues to be true, as a generalisation. There are differing groups of these men. Some more extreme than others.

You mentioned Malala. Malala fought the men who refused her an education.

We are discussing men who pretend to be women to mock women.

One is far more extreme than the other. It doesnt mean any is ok.

The problem with men mocking women is because they are the oppressor class. Just as white people are to black people. Not all men are sexist, just as not all white people are racist. But as classes, we have varying degrees of priviledge.

If people choose to mock themselves, that is a personal choice. To emukate and mock those who have less than you is not acceptable, and is generally seen as offensive.

I am yeah

Well, she did, but she didn't launch a campaign on all men, did she?

Re your last paragraph, it comes to again your way of categorising people.

I am a woman. Just because another woman mocks me and we are the same sex doesn't mean she can mock me.

We are not all the same.

They are not expressing themselves.

They are expressing there opinion of women.

@LilacTwine

They can't understand what it's like to be abused because it's so rare and women are weaker (and that).

No that's not quite right - yes men can be victims of domestic abuse, for example, but it's a matter of priority - men don't get killed at the same rate and resources are stretched.

That is down to violent men, it's not something that women are taking from them.

I don't believe that but I've seen it written on here.

My point was, people say men don't support us but then effectively don't let them.

@PheasantPlucker1

Being a woman is not an act, or character.

Unbelievable this needs spelling out.

Dressing up to pretend to be someone and mocking them, then persisting when they patiently explain why its offensive, is not funny.

But not all women find it offensive.

So do we sack it based on the views of some women?

No one here is launching a campaign on all men.

Just the ones who persistently insult women, for money or because they think its funny.

@PheasantPlucker1

No one here is launching a campaign on all men.

Just the ones who persistently insult women, for money or because they think its funny.

I don't disagree with that. I know you personally haven't, but there have been posters who see men as one collective who are a b and c. That's what I disagree with.