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Drag is the Black & White minstrel-ism of today

651 replies

Taoneusa · 25/02/2021 15:28

How long before the appropriation and exploitation is recognised more fully ?

B&W minstrels were cliched, cartoonish, and “for entertainment”, as well, weren’t they.

OP posts:
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15
Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 22:32

Because it's not just men who perform in drag!!! Thats why.

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 22:33

It's not somthing that's being done 'to' women by men. It's a performance. Men and women do it and impersonate all sorts of people and things.

SunshineAvocado · 25/02/2021 22:33

Sorry I meant tomboy not tinnitus!

Ijustknowitstimetogo · 25/02/2021 22:34

However, if many gay men did complain, do you think Catherine Taye would argue with them and carry on, or apologise and stop?

What do you think she should do in that situation?

She’s parodying a repressed gay man. You could argue that gay people have been repressed because of the way society has treated them and she is part of that society.

I’m not really sure tbh!

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 22:34

Apologies, I made a mistake earlier.

Izzard isnt saying hes a woman as I saod. He claims to be in "girl mode"

A 59 year old girl.

MammaSchwifty · 25/02/2021 22:35

I cannot agree that men as a whole think women are lesser.

There is no where in the world, no country in Earth, where you can go and find that the culture and society does not treat women and girls as lesser. In "the west", the Americas, Africa, India, Asia, even the fucking Arctic Circle, women are variously sytematically treated as property, abused, raped, controlled, trafficked, enslaved, prevented from ownership of property, left to die as newborns for being female, aborted for being female, unschooled and uneducated, relegated to huts for being "unclean", shunned for having been raped, genitally mutilated, deprived positions of power or responsibility etc etc, the sickening list goes on. Do you get that? No where on Earth are women not systemically treated as less then men, and in many cases, as less than human.

They don't make the rules.
Men haven't made the rules? Yes, yes they did. Women have been until incredibly recently in historical terms (and often still are) disenfranchised from the power structures of society. That is where the rules are made.

Does this mean women aren't strong, resilient, and resourceful? No, the opposite. When you open your eyes and see the struggle we, as a global class, face, I admire women all the more.

Perhaps the comparison of race and sex is clumsy, but if anything it tells me the cause for women's rights needs it's own much stronger voice and language, so we don't feel the need to borrow examples in a plea to get heard and to try to get people to understand. Sadly, at this time it seems that voice is getting ever more silenced as you can see in the vile attacks made on women on social media who dare to speak out against the tsunami of misogynistic sentiment

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 22:37

MammaSchwifty amazingly well put!

I agree with every word.

Notimeforaname · 25/02/2021 22:37

I also cant agree that 'men as a whole' think less of women.. Some men do. But some women think less of men too so. Hey ho. We all have to live together.

SunshineAvocado · 25/02/2021 22:40

@PheasantPlucker1

Apologies, I made a mistake earlier.

Izzard isnt saying hes a woman as I saod. He claims to be in "girl mode"

A 59 year old girl.

Like I said, I quite like him. I really didn't like that Stefonknee prat who claimed he identified as a 6 year old girl though! Bleurghhh!
PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 22:49

Eddie is also claiming to be a girl...

Ijustreallywantacat · 25/02/2021 22:51

Eddie is also claiming to be a girl...

Shes claiming to be gender fluid. I'm sure you knew exactly what she meant by 'girl model. She doesn't mean 6 year old. You know that. Don't be malicious.

LexMitior · 25/02/2021 22:52

Drag is really complex - I can see the argument that it is anti woman. But equally, I do remember club queens in gay clubs and they were entirely themselves - very cool, friendly, and just nice people. And you had Lily Savage and Julian Clary who played with how they looked for the hell of it. It had for a long time this subversive edge and the men who did well you didn't ever think they were making a real point about women - they were gay men who did not hide that.

Its men who walk about late at night in drag I respect. That was brave. The shit they got. Because straight wankers definitely thought they were lesser, "aping women".

But I hate Drag Race. Ugh.

Ijustreallywantacat · 25/02/2021 22:54

The comparison of race and sex is clumsy

The comparison of black face and drag was very clumsy and wrong. Thank you.

Not everything is about you. Men in drag are thinking about their own struggles, and who can blame them.

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 22:58

Me.
I blame them. Its possible for people to fight their own battles without punching down.

Men can engage in drag without including women. They refuse, presumably because mocking others makes them feel better about themsleves.

VladmirsPoutine · 25/02/2021 22:58

The comparison of black face and drag was very clumsy and wrong. Thank you.

Precisely. I can't understand the logic of anyone who sees the two as even remotely the same.

Annasgirl · 25/02/2021 23:01

@WowStarsWow

How do people not realise that women dressing up as men is not equivalent to men dressing up as women? Are they not aware of women’s history as an oppressed class? Would they ask if it is offensive for black people to dress up as white people? 🙄
Agree.

Is it fake ignorance or actual ignorance - and which is more offensive?

Bagamoyo1 · 25/02/2021 23:03

[quote WowStarsWow]@StaciesSpace your post is very long, but I’d love to rewrite it with “black people” replacing “women” and “blackface” replacing “drag”, and get your opinion on that.[/quote]
Absolutely

Mockolate · 25/02/2021 23:10

your post is very long, but I’d love to rewrite it with “black people” replacing “women” and “blackface” replacing “drag”, and get your opinion on that

I'm white, so apologies if comes across wrong, but there's something about this that comes across as uncomfortable to me.
It was on the other thread (countless other drag threads!) where people were saying womanface same as blackface.
It's not comparable, kind of comparing yourself to racism and black struggles, and that's Hmm
Just not the same.
Something kind of "off" and racist in it itself, to appropriate yourself (general you) to black history and say it's the same.

PickAChew · 25/02/2021 23:12

@MammaSchwifty

I cannot agree that men as a whole think women are lesser.

There is no where in the world, no country in Earth, where you can go and find that the culture and society does not treat women and girls as lesser. In "the west", the Americas, Africa, India, Asia, even the fucking Arctic Circle, women are variously sytematically treated as property, abused, raped, controlled, trafficked, enslaved, prevented from ownership of property, left to die as newborns for being female, aborted for being female, unschooled and uneducated, relegated to huts for being "unclean", shunned for having been raped, genitally mutilated, deprived positions of power or responsibility etc etc, the sickening list goes on. Do you get that? No where on Earth are women not systemically treated as less then men, and in many cases, as less than human.

They don't make the rules.
Men haven't made the rules? Yes, yes they did. Women have been until incredibly recently in historical terms (and often still are) disenfranchised from the power structures of society. That is where the rules are made.

Does this mean women aren't strong, resilient, and resourceful? No, the opposite. When you open your eyes and see the struggle we, as a global class, face, I admire women all the more.

Perhaps the comparison of race and sex is clumsy, but if anything it tells me the cause for women's rights needs it's own much stronger voice and language, so we don't feel the need to borrow examples in a plea to get heard and to try to get people to understand. Sadly, at this time it seems that voice is getting ever more silenced as you can see in the vile attacks made on women on social media who dare to speak out against the tsunami of misogynistic sentiment

❤️
Ijustreallywantacat · 25/02/2021 23:17

It's not mocking women! I've just watched four episodes of Ru Paul and one of Dragula. Nowhere was there any lambasting of women.

Gay men and drag queens do not call themselves 'sister' and 'she' because they want to punch down on women.

The idea that dresses and make up doesn't mean 'woman' is very new. To everybody. Do you think men trying on thongs 100 years ago would have had anything else to call themselves? Do you think the boy experimenting with make up in the 70s, being beaten by his father for being a poof or a girl should have said, "hold on dad, I'm still very much a person of the male sex class."

Dresses and make up and being effeminate for years has been designated as 'womanly' for years. Its very understandable that camp men would have said for years that they are a little girly.

95% of the time they are not in drag. And many still wear make up. And many still dress effeminately. And they KNOW THAT THEY ARE MALE.

Drag is expanding and breaking down barriers. Drag DOES include women.
Drag IS NOT about dressing up like a woman.
Drag is AN ACT

PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 23:17

Theres no need to comapre it to blackface. Sexism is what it is.

For millenia men (as a class) have owned women (as a class).

Literally, owned. Bought, sold, raped, murdered. Murdered millions. Theyre still cuttling baby girls clitorises off. Women who legally cant vote. Cant drive. Cant even legally wear what they want.

I still cant walk at night because of men (as a class) unless I take an individual man to protect me.

So how the fuck dare men stick a fucking dress and take piss out of us?

Women have fought for centuries to be free from male opression, only for them to insist theyre dont mean it and its our culture.

Its culture of oppression.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 23:20

@PheasantPlucker1

Theres no need to comapre it to blackface. Sexism is what it is.

For millenia men (as a class) have owned women (as a class).

Literally, owned. Bought, sold, raped, murdered. Murdered millions. Theyre still cuttling baby girls clitorises off. Women who legally cant vote. Cant drive. Cant even legally wear what they want.

I still cant walk at night because of men (as a class) unless I take an individual man to protect me.

So how the fuck dare men stick a fucking dress and take piss out of us?

Women have fought for centuries to be free from male opression, only for them to insist theyre dont mean it and its our culture.

Its culture of oppression.

No.

You can't walk at night because of SOME men.

@MammaSchwifty, all men do not make those rules. Historically, they did, but my brother is no more responsible for rape being legal until the 90s than my dog is

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 23:21

@PheasantPlucker1

Me. I blame them. Its possible for people to fight their own battles without punching down.

Men can engage in drag without including women. They refuse, presumably because mocking others makes them feel better about themsleves.

You mean like women should fight for equality without constantly slagging odd, labelling, stereotyping and blaming everything and anything on men?
PheasantPlucker1 · 25/02/2021 23:22

Ijustreallywantacat

So when they demand to be called she in this act, what are they acting as, if not a she?

Endless gaslighting by these men. I cant believe people fall for it.

RootyT00t · 25/02/2021 23:23

@Ereshkigalangcleg

No, I disagree. They were/are treated as lesser due to their sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation, not their perceived reproductive capacity. They were considered lesser in a different way to women. I'm not denying the oppression they faced, or that some men don't benefit from sexism but males as a class are the privileged sex of the two sexes. Again, this isn't about individuals.
Unless they're black, gay, or an underprivileged youth.

Which pretty much only leaves white straight middle aged rich men, but we know that.

It's a shame men seem to be represented based on the actions of these men.

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